Active Community: Message List - 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

Re: 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

RunAsics — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 03:27:00 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by JimR:

Don't worry about speed too much over winter. Keep a good volume going. Once the weather starts to break and race season approaches, then you can introduce your speed back in. Nothing wrong with mile repeats. You may want to look at introducing a solid tempo or progression run in your plan at that time as well.

As well as maintaining a good percentage of my miles, as JimR suggests, I like to keep some shorter tempo runs in over the winter, just to keep the motor running. I have found that this keeps me stimulated and makes the transition to speedwork prior to racing season a little smoother.

I start my speedwork each season by slowly increasing my tempo run duration then ease into some 400s, then 800s then mile repeats. For the 5k, I'll focus more on the 400s, building pace and number of intervals (upto 10).

Note that for my first sub 20 5k, the majority of my runs were 20 min tempos and 30 progressions. Adding consistant 400s, and some longer tempos I dropped to the low 19s. Adding more miles, I dropped below 19.

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Re: 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

OldXCguy — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 05:33:00 GMT

RacingThoughts, nice progress so far! Good luck to you and adkblues. Keep us posted on your workouts and races.

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Re: 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

RacingThoughts — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 03:22:00 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by Scott3294:
Hi,
I am brand new to competing, but not new to running. I am 40 years old and in pretty decent shape. I ran the mile and 2 mile in highschool and then gave up running (played basketball regularly through my 30's) until about 2.5 years ago.
I started running several times a week. Most runs were 3 to 4 miles and I ran them generally at about an 8 minute pace. A few weeks ago I started longer runs (slower MAF pace about 9 MPM) and have my weekly mileage up into the upper 20's.
This past Friday, on a whim with a friend, we ran a 5k race in town (this was my first race since high school, and longest). I finished 20th out of 200 with a time of 22:41. So...........
My goal is to break 22, then 21...and then 20.
My next step is a Trick or Trot 5k this weekend and I just want to run faster than last week and survive running at 8 am...I never run before noon and most days I run in the evening...so this might be a handicap.
Anyway..this looks like a great thread and wanted to jump in.
Scott

Nice job!

I've done three 5Ks so far (29:50, 26:09, and 23:17) after about five months of training. I've never seriously been a runner or competed before this. My long term goal for now is to break 20, and my short term goals are similar to yours, 22, then 21. I'm averaging around 17 miles a week and should break 20 this week. Trying to get that up to 25-30. Running my first 10K next weekend, we'll see how that goes then it's back to 5Ks. Good luck to everyone!

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Re: 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

Jim24315 — Tue, 16 Oct 2007 03:14:00 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by OldXCguy:
I had planned to travel to Saratoga this weekend for the National Masters 5K cross country championships, but when my club was unable to field a 50's team, I decided it wouldn't be worth giving up most of my weekend to go and run a mediocre race. Instead, I decided to stay home and do a local 5K that was billed as "a flat and fast certified course."

Race day (yesterday) turned out to be a perfect day for running: sunny, lo 50's, light breeze. I started out at a brisk, but controlled pace, allowing many runners to charge out ahead of me. As I settled in, people started falling back. About a half mile in, I made a conscious decision to expend a little extra energy to try to catch up to a pack just ahead of me. I never quite caught the pack, but I continued to pick off runners as they fell back.

I hit the mile in 6:16, the fastest I have gone through an opening mile in a long time. The best part was that I was still feeling strong and comfortable. I reminded myself to stay relaxed and maintain form. As I continued to catch runners ahead of me, I went through two miles in 12:33. At that point, I was mentally starting to compose my race report. I was thinking of a heading of "Breakthrough Race!" I realized that if I maintained pace, or even slowed slighty, I was looking at a time in the mid-19's.

I had jogged the last mile or so of the course before the race to get an idea of how much was left from key landmarks, so when I got to a spot that I thought was a little over five minutes to go, I looked at my watch and thought, "Holy s**t!
If I don't get moving, I'm not even going to break 20!" That was enough of a kick in the butt to get me to push hard through the last kilometer. When I crossed the line, the clock read 19:52. I'm sure I had a huge smile on my face. I had run 19:50 in the spring on a course that, while I cross-checked it for accuracy, was un-certified.

Sorry this was so long. If anyone is still reading, thank you.
I'll make a separate post discussing what I think went wrong between two miles and the end of the race. Hint: I believe it was related to the "Short Course Prevention Factor."

Hey XC,

This is great news! Just judging by posts of yours I'd read, I honestly believed that you were going to do it. As far as I could see the main thing that has kept you from breaking through sooner has been the courses you've been running. That's why I don't like to run those off road courses when I'm looking to run a good time. Even though we have a very legitimate reason to have run slower on them, it plants seeds doubt in our minds--at least that's how it is with me.

"I was mentally starting to compose my race report. I was thinking of a heading of "Breakthrough Race!"

I can completely relate to this and it's a very bad habit to get into. I'm much better now, but have had to work hard at it and am not completely cured. Whenever I catch myself doing it my mantra becomes "focus, focus, focus, stay in the here and now" repeat.

As far as that last mile, I think that a more likely explanation is that the mile markers were slightly misplaced, or a combination of that and the "short course preventionn factor". Even on certified courses this happens all the time. The overall distance is accurate, but the setup crew that places the markers isn't always as careful as it should be. Just one more reason for us to give it our best until we've crossed under the banner.

You've broken the barrier now, and I'm sure there will be more good ones to follow. I'm happy for you.

Well done.

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Re: 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

George in Fremont — Wed, 03 Oct 2007 23:53:00 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
gcklo....focus on breaking 21 in your next race.

It sounds like you are dissapointed in a 21:09 when you missed your PR by a mere 4 seconds? Thats not bad at all...

What was your mile split? I usually run the 1st mile of a 5k in around 6:30 and feel somewhat tired but then I try to latch onto another runner and use them to pull me through mile 2. Are you running mile one too fast? If you can do 8X 800 in 3:20 with 80 seconds rest you should be able to go under 21 quite easily I would think.

For last Sun's race, I don't have mile splits since the markers were for the 10k folks and we had slightly different starting lines.

For the 5k PR that I set in Aug, my first mile was 6:40, 2nd mile at 13:22. I slowed down in mile 3 and ended up in 21:05.

Because I felt very easy in hitting 8x1/2 mile at about 3:17 to 3:19 with 1:20 rest, I thought I should be able to break 21. That's why I was disappointed getting 21:09. Did I use the wrong training? Or did I do something wrong on race day? I have no idea now. One of the adjustments I made 2 months ago was to change my speed intervals, e.g. 8x1/2 mile with 1/4 mile jog to the CV runs. When I was doing speed intervals, I did 8x1/2 between 3:03 to 3:07 with a 1/4 jog with ease. I also used to do 6x1k in 3:55 with 600 m jog. I slowed both of them down and reduce the rest time to build my stamina.

But so far, it seems like I haven't really gained a lot. What gives?

----

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Re: 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

ANONYMOUS — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:52:00 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by Jim24315:

P.R. (6:17, 6:38, 6:51, :46) = 20:32
You are 33 seconds away from breaking 20

You should try to lose some weight and run more. If you are getting sore I suspect that your training pace is too fast. Running more will help with the weight, and of course your endurance. Except for 1 or 2 quality runs per week, run everything else at 2 minutes per mile slower than your current 5k pace and try to build up to at least 40 mpw. It's important that you keep most of your miles at a comfortable pace and do the build up very gradually.

If you can run 20:32 off what little you've been doing over a such a relatively short time, you can probably break 19 within a year if you are willing to put in the work.

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I suspect you're on to something with training paces being too fast, especially since hardly any of it is a quality run.

I have some trouble trying to slow it down when training, even though I know it's the right thing to do. I make the same mistakes as a lot of newer runners, feeling like every run has to be at a hard pace, and I need to feel tired afterwards.

Re: 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

Jim24315 — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:07:00 GMT

quote:

Anyway, I want to break the 20 minute 5k, but as you can see, I don't do much for training. Being a little on the heavy side, if I get sore if i go too many miles in a week, and I need the 2 off days in a week to help me not feel like i'm dying.

How close am I? What should I do?

[/B]

P.R. (6:17, 6:38, 6:51, :46) = 20:32
You are 33 seconds away from breaking 20

You should try to lose some weight and run more. If you are getting sore I suspect that your training pace is too fast. Running more will help with the weight, and of course your endurance. Except for 1 or 2 quality runs per week, run everything else at 2 minutes per mile slower than your current 5k pace and try to build up to at least 40 mpw. It's important that you keep most of your miles at a comfortable pace and do the build up very gradually.

If you can run 20:32 off what little you've been doing over a such a relatively short time, you can probably break 19 within a year if you are willing to put in the work.

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Re: 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

JasonsDrivingForce — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:41:00 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by MichiganFlyer2:

I have a race on October 7 that I would like to run hard. Initially I was thinking to try to run the 1st mile harder than usual and try for a 6:20. Then try to run mile 2 in around 6:40 for a 2 mile time in 13 or under. So something like splits of 6:20, 6:38, 6:28 would make a sub 20 within my grasp.

Then I hear Kudzus remarks of pacing the 1st half and racing the 2nd half and consider that option...but I realize it is very difficult to get the guts to run hard in half two. I need to decide what my strategy will be before the run Oct. 7 so today I went out and tried to run a 6:20 mile on the streets to see how it would feel (if I would have more left for mile 2).

Michigan,

I know you can do it on the right course. Is your next race on the streets? Those cross country hilly courses are just too hard. Everyone else is right! The first half is for pacing and the last half is “Go for Broke time”.

The best race I have ever run was a 10K last year. I was running with just my son and I started out a little fast. I ran the first 5K in about 21 minutes and I was loosing steam quickly. A guy caught me with a double stroller at the 4 mile mark and I just gave it everything I had for the last two miles. The guy sat right behind me drafting the whole way(The draft makes a huge difference with a stroller). I didn’t care though I was going for the “time” not the win. He passed me with a quarter mile to go but we had run those last two miles in about 12 minutes. I had done a negative split by more than 1 minute! I also knocked about 2 minutes off of my 10K pr in a single race.

Having the competition right behind me and giving it everything I had over the last quarter of the race is what gave me the PR. I could have run those last two miles slowly and then blown him away at the end but then I wouldn’t have gotten the PR. I will take the PR over the win any day. Well, unless there is money involved then I will take the win!

Good luck on your race. Try to find someone who will just barely break the mark you are looking for. Keep them in your sights and surge very hard with a half mile to a quarter mile to go. I know you have it in you!

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Re: 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

kudzurunner — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:48:00 GMT

quote:
Originally posted by OldXCguy:
Interesting ongoing discussion on pacing a 5K.

MichiganFlyer, you speak of "surges" in your racing. True surges are a competitive tactic meant to weaken a nearby runner or runners. For most of us, surges waste energy.
We should be thinking in terms of a smooth, relatively even pace. Granted, one's first mile is generally a bit faster than the second, especially at 5K and 10K distances, but in general, we should be able to maintain a strong effort on the second mile if we are to reach our potential. I've noticed that I can easily maintain pace on tempo runs, which are only slightly slower, so it is possible.

I suspect that for many of us (certainly me included), the real problem is not pacing as much as it is our fitness level. If one were sufficiently fit, a 6:20 or so first mile would feel comfortable enough that the next couple of miles could be run at similar pace with a reasonable effort. I guess what I'm saying is that if one were capable of 19:30, rather than just 19:59, a sub-20 would come easily. I know that sounds obvious, but I'm starting to believe that is the crux of the issue.

OXC:

I'm going to disagree with you. Theoretically, surges are a bad idea; they squander energy.

But in actuality, I've run my best races when I engaged directly with another runner, or two, or three, in the second half of the race.....lost track of what I "should" be doing....and went for broke, with a truly go-for-broke, kick-ass attitude.

In all case, however, I went out quite controlled. I did NOT surge during the first half of the race. I went out with one goal in mind: to deliver myself to the halfway point having hewed quite stringently to the maxim, "The first half is for pacing, the second half is for racing." (Some here may remember a NYC maniac named Bob Glover.)

I did this when I set my PR of 19:32 back in late January, just before tearing up my hamstring. And at the time, I felt~~and still feel~~as though I'd broken through into a new way of running races, which is to say, really RACING them.

What I did was pace my way briskly but in full control to the halfway point. Then I put on my game-day face, the one with fangs and claws, and began hunting for prey.

I discovered that if I looked up ahead, forgot about my body for the moment, and simply said, "Get 'em," the way one would sic one's dog on a neighbor's out-of-hand dog~~if one were truly evil, I mean~~I was capable of closing the gap. When my guiding principle became: sow terror and despair in all who linger in my path, I actually became capable of superhuman things.

It's not easy to jump from controlled to reckless like this. I'd always had trouble doing it; in fact, I'd never actually understood what reckless, as in predatory, was on race-day. I THOUGHT I was racing, but I wasn't getting nearly as primal as I was capable of getting.

These thoughts may strike some as the ravings of a madman, but I offer them in the hope that they may inspire some developing racer to try something new. That's why we race, isn't it? To break though into a whole new way of knowing ourselves and extracting our best from the crisis-moment that road racing invariably confronts us with.

Be predatory. Be evil. Be courteous, but get ugly, too. Bare the fangs. And surge sometimes. Surge recklessly--AFTER the halfway point. It's good for the soul, and you may just surprise yourself with the time you end up notching.

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Re: 2007 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread

Jim24315 — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:55:00 GMT

From what I've observed over the years, the type and amount of training that runners respond best to can vary a lot from one to another. It seems like I've always run my best times at peak mileage or close to it.

Although I'm sure that orbis11 is not the only one, my guess is that those who have improved by cutting their long runs from 14 to 8-10 miles are outnumbered by those who keep them up. For me the improvement from increasing the distance and frequency of long runs has often been dramatic, even as I've gotten older.

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