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1693 Views 11 Replies Latest reply: Jun 29, 2011 7:27 AM by oldslowjogger
WCLLUMP Amateur 18 posts since
Jul 17, 2004
Currently Being Moderated

Jun 27, 2011 1:15 PM

Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

Major League Rule's, runner on 2nd base who is stealing on the pitch; batter is walked on ball four and flips the bat lazily, nonchalantly and not on purpose to interfere, back to his dugout.  The catcher's throw hits the flipped bat.

 

Do we go to the rule penalization that the runner is out with 0 or 1 outs and the batter is out with two outs?  This is what I have.

 

If not, then how do you penalize here?  I am looking for the answer without 0-1 outs and also the answer with two outs.

 

Thanks.

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Jun 27, 2011 2:30 PM (in response to WCLLUMP)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    Interference with a throw must be intentional in Major League rules (OBR).

     

     

     

    FED in their infinite wisdom calls this interference.

  • oldslowjogger Amateur 18 posts since
    Jun 29, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Jun 27, 2011 3:23 PM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    Perhaps someone needs to tell that to the plate umpire doing the ASU-Texas Super Regional game huh Rich?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuQOpomBWXo

  • DawgDays Pro 156 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Jun 27, 2011 3:36 PM (in response to WCLLUMP)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    This sounds like 6.06(c) interference to me, and that does not require intent.

     

    6.06(c) calls the batter out in most situations, but if the runner from 3B is attempting to score with less than two out, the runner is out per 7.08(g).

  • HugoTafurst Legend 515 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Jun 27, 2011 8:51 PM (in response to DawgDays)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    DawgDays wrote:

     

    This sounds like 6.06(c) interference to me, and that does not require intent.

     

    6.06(c) calls the batter out in most situations, but if the runner from 3B is attempting to score with less than two out, the runner is out per 7.08(g).

     

    The OP stated that the batter received 4 balls  - Can't use 6.06 (c) - he is now a runner (per 6.08 (a) if my memory is correct).





    oops

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Jun 28, 2011 5:29 AM (in response to WCLLUMP)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    If you're going to call this interference, (and I'm not so sure I would) the batter is always the one called out, regardless of the number of outs..  The batter is out and the runner(s) return.

     

    The only time that you would call the runner out for the batter's interference is with a play at the plate with less than two outs.

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Jun 28, 2011 5:43 AM (in response to oldslowjogger)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    OSJ,

     

    For starters, Rich specifically stated "in Major League rules (OBR)"

    The ASU-Texas Super Regional game isn't played under OBR rules.

    They use NCAA rules.

     

    The clip that you posted doesn't show interference with a thrown ball.  It shows interference with a fielder's throw.  There's a big difference.

     

    In your clip, the catcher was attempting to make a throw when the batter stepped out of the box and interfered with his attempt to throw the ball.  Regardless of what the talking heads were mumbling, contact is not required.  Also, I don't believe that the umpire was calling the runner out.  He was probably pointing him back to first base, because the ball became dead as soon as the interference occured.  The batter is out and the runner(s) return.

     

    An example of interference with a throw would be if the runner was hit by the thrown ball.  You don't call that runner out unless he did something intentional, like bat the ball away from the fielder.

  • oldslowjogger Amateur 18 posts since
    Jun 29, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Jun 28, 2011 12:36 PM (in response to Mason_Dixon_Blue)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    MSB - Perhaps you are correct as I only do OBR.  But consider the following: Batter walks and is jogging down to 1st.  F2 decides to make a possible play with a "fielder's throw" down to F3 just in case the BR rounds the bag at 1st and makes a motion to 2nd.  But F2's throw nails the BR a few steps from the bag and bounces off his helmet going into DBT.  And the BR was outside the running lane when he "interfered" (or did he?) with the play (i.e. F3's attempt to field a thrown ball from F2's "play" on a runner).  Whatcha gonna call MDB?  Was the BR entitled to 1st just like R1 was entitled to 2nd in the video?  Yes.  Could there be a "possible" play on either runner?  (Play --- "an attempt to retire a runner".) Yes, as in one case the BR could try for 2nd possibly and in the other R1 could overslide-or-overrun 2nd.  But you're trying to predict what each runner MIGHT do when the "interference-or-not" happens and the last time I checked "prediciting" is not anywhere in the rules.

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Jun 28, 2011 6:54 PM (in response to oldslowjogger)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    oldslowjogger wrote:

     

    MSB - Perhaps you are correct as I only do OBR.  But consider the following: Batter walks and is jogging down to 1st.  F2 decides to make a possible play with a "fielder's throw" down to F3 just in case the BR rounds the bag at 1st and makes a motion to 2nd.  But F2's throw nails the BR a few steps from the bag and bounces off his helmet going into DBT.  And the BR was outside the running lane when he "interfered" (or did he?) with the play (i.e. F3's attempt to field a thrown ball from F2's "play" on a runner).  Whatcha gonna call MDB? 

     

    What am I going to call?

    I'm going to call time and award the batter-runner second base.

    The catcher's throw went out of play.

     

    The batter-runner did not commit runner's lane interference because there was no play possible on him.

    He is awarded first base without liability to be put out.

     

    Sure he could have rounded first base and been tagged out.

    But then he could have done back handsprings over the bag too.

    As umpires we can't rule on coulda, woulda, shoulda.

    We have to rule on what actually happened.

     

    oldslowjogger wrote:


      Was the BR entitled to 1st just like R1 was entitled to 2nd in the video? 

    R1 was not entitled to second base in the video.  he was attempting to steal second base.

    As soon as the batter committed interference, the runner has to go back to his time of interference base.

     

    oldslowjogger wrote:


    Yes, as in one case the BR could try for 2nd possibly and in the other R1 could overslide-or-overrun 2nd.  But you're trying to predict what each runner MIGHT do when the "interference-or-not" happens and the last time I checked "prediciting" is not anywhere in the rules.

    I NEVER predict what is going to happen.

    Like I said earlier, we can't rule on coulda, woulda, shoulda.

  • oldslowjogger Amateur 18 posts since
    Jun 29, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Jun 28, 2011 9:22 PM (in response to Mason_Dixon_Blue)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    MSD --- take a look at the video again.  The count to the batter at the time of the pitch is 3-2.  The pitch was BALL 4 to the batter (now batter-runner) on that interference call.  R1 was indeed entitled to 2nd as soon as the pitch was called BALL 4.  He was stealing UNTIL the pitch was called BALL 4, but then he became entitled to 2nd due to the batter earning a walk.  The interference call was NOT on a batter (still at the plate) or a teammate (batter had struck out), but on a batter-runner.  A very unusual and controversial call according to OBR, but NCAA rules could be different in this regard.  If they are please post what the rules say as I cannot find any reference to anything regarding a BR being called out for interference in an F2 making a play on an R1 "moving" down to second after a walk in J/R.  Thanks.

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Jun 29, 2011 4:50 AM (in response to oldslowjogger)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    Oh!    My bad ........  I didn't realize that it was ball 4.

     

    In that case, they shouldn't have called anything.

    That was a case of a catcher not knowing the game situation.

    He played on a runner who was entitled to a base.

     

    Punish stupidity whenever possible.

  • oldslowjogger Amateur 18 posts since
    Jun 29, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Jun 29, 2011 7:27 AM (in response to Mason_Dixon_Blue)
    Re: Who Is Out? Batter Or Runner?

    MDB - the 3-2 count on the batter definitely made this a very controversial call in that game.  Lots of "discussion" between the ASU coach and the umpire afterwards

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