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3105 Views 16 Replies Latest reply: Jul 20, 2011 8:06 PM by TheMouth__1 RSS 1 2 Previous Next
NassauGladiators Rookie 3 posts since
Jul 12, 2011
Currently Being Moderated

Jul 20, 2011 9:03 PM

Runner on 2nd, 2 outs, hit to SS, he fields the ball throws to 1st, umpire signals out but,

Runner on 2nd, 2 outs, hit to SS, he fields the ball throws to 1st, umpire signals out but, then points to HP Ump for verification if 1st baseman was on the bag, he is called safe.My team starts to leave field on out call, runner rounds 3rd and scores?  Shouldn't the runner have to go back to 3rd?  there was no chance he would have scored...  shouldn't the out still stand???

 

I have never had this happen and haven't had a chance to look it up.

 

Scott

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Jul 12, 2011 7:17 AM (in response to NassauGladiators)
    Re: Reversed call legal?

    1) Reversals of calls at first (and other bases for that matter) happen.  They're legal.  The "safe" stands. They happen often enough that you should be prepared for the possibility.

     

    2) The run scores.

     

    3) If you've never had a reversal happen you're really new at this.

  • Phillieball Pro 99 posts since
    Mar 23, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Jul 12, 2011 7:47 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Reversed call legal?

    On this, does the BU have to ask the PU for help or is the PU responsible to call it when he sees it?

     

    The timing could affect when the defense realizes what happened.

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Jul 12, 2011 8:52 AM (in response to Phillieball)
    Re: Reversed call legal?

    The BU has to ask.  "Overrules" are verbotten.

     

    Players need to be aware that it's a possibility.

  • CubbieFan2323 Rookie 2 posts since
    Jul 12, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Jul 12, 2011 12:37 PM (in response to NassauGladiators)
    Re: Proper Ruling

    This play is actually not specifically covered in any rule book.

     

    In cases where plays are not specifically covered, umpires are allowed to use judgement and common sense in issuing rulings, per Rule 9.01(c) in the Major League rule book (there are similar rules in almost all rule books).

     

    In this case, using common sense, the batter-runner would be placed at first and the original runner on second would be placed back at third.

     

    The base umpire must initiate getting help from the plate umpire.  However, this genearlly takes a minute or so.  The defense cannot be responsible for runners running the bases while umpires are conferring.  For that matter, if umpires were conferring, there would be no umpire available to rule on any subsequent plays at any base.

     

    Hope this helps.

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Jul 12, 2011 4:03 PM (in response to CubbieFan2323)
    Re: Proper Ruling

    I think Cubbie has the correct answer.....it is not covered by any rule.  I do know however, I have never seen an umpire call the out and then immediately look to the HPU for clarification.  This is done during relaxed play on appeal.  If no appeal the out stands, if appeal overturns the original call the baserunners should be placed at the bases they would have normally advanced to.     TM

  • mackman Pro 83 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Jul 12, 2011 4:57 PM (in response to TheMouth__1)
    Re: Proper Ruling

    Checking with the home plate umpire for a pulled foot at first is a standard mechanic.  So much so that its actually specifically covered by most clinics and is a part of the Little League umpire school.

     

    The field umpire did not actually do it 'right' in that he should have first checked with the home plate umpire immediately for a pulled foot if he suspected it might be possible, and only made his call after checking with home plate.  The correct mechanic is to point to home plate and ask "Did he pull his foot?" to which the home plate umpire answers yes or not, not safe or out.  The field umpire makes the safe/out call.  Still, the field umpire calling the out (ball beat runner) then checking is not too far out there as long as it was nothing more than a point.  If the home plate umpire says he pulled his foot, then the call is safe.  The runner is safe and to call him out anyways would be wrong.

     

    This is never an 'appeal play'.  An appeal is a specific term referring to a missed bag or failure to tag up (and it doesn't have to happen in relaxed action and most often doesn't).  It would be very bad form in a case like this for umpires to confer after all was said and done and to THEN reverse a call.  That is just plain bad umpiring.  A pulled foot is never an appealable call.  I'll admit that it is fairly common to see a coach request to a field umpire that the first baseman pulled his foot and then the two umpires will confer and possibly overturn a call during a timeout.  Yes, that happens, but no, it is not actually correct form.  Still, that is not an appeal.  And, in a case like that the umpires could not place runners where they would have otherwise advanced to.  At best they could put a runner back on 1st that was called out incorrectly.

     

    This really isn't that uncommon, although the umpires did mess up a little in the order of actions.  Not sure why it created such a drama.

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Jul 15, 2011 7:47 AM (in response to mackman)
    Re: Proper Ruling

    Mackman, I am not disputing your opinion on how this is viewed by an umpire, I'm taking the other side.  I know my teams once they hear of SEE the out call for the 3rd out, they hustle off the field (not uncommon) and the first baseman would either toss the ball to the umpire at first or roll it to the mound.   This is very common occurance.  For the umpire to call the out and signal the out should automatically have relaxed play begin.  To say OOPS I might have missed it and confer with the HPU is just not good umpiring. Again, in many many years of coaching (and umpiring) I have never seen the senario you describe. You have basically UNRUNG the bell.     This includes College and High School venues.   TM

  • mackman Pro 83 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Jul 15, 2011 9:06 AM (in response to TheMouth__1)
    Re: Proper Ruling

    Ok, I can see the argument for the case that if this were the third out and the team started leaving the field, it would be unfair to penalize the team for that.  However, there are better rules justifications for what to do to remedy the situation.  I agree that this is somewhat of a 9.01(c) situation, but it is certainly not an appeal play.  I think it would depend on how this occured.  The post seemed to imply that the reversal was more or less immediate, in which case I think I'd have a hard time doing anything for the defense.  If there really were some delay and it was clear the defense reacted to the calling of the third out and started leaving, then my argument would be that the calling of the third out essentially ended the inning, therefore all play is dead.  Reversing that call would allow the runner to stay on third, but would not allow any other to advance.

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Jul 16, 2011 5:27 PM (in response to mackman)
    Re: Proper Ruling

    OK Mack I can live with that logic.   TM

  • DuckMike Pro 88 posts since
    Nov 5, 2003
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Jul 18, 2011 8:07 AM (in response to TheMouth__1)
    Re: Proper Ruling

    That's freaky that you asked this question, because the exact same thing happened to us in a game on Saturday.  BU called an out on a 4-3 grounder, which was a 3rd out.  F3 rolled the ball to the pitcher's mound.  Play was eventually reversed for a pulled foot.  Runner kept going and scored from second.  After conferring, runner was placed back at 3rd.

     

    [Actually, the PU spontaneously called the F3 off the bag and changed the call without being asked (?!), but that part is beside-the-point to this story.

  • frankumps Rookie 1 posts since
    Jul 20, 2011
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Jul 20, 2011 11:57 AM (in response to NassauGladiators)
    2 on and 2 outs

    this is easy, the runner from third should have been put back on third, The home plate ump having seen the mistake should have called time and had a conference with the feild ump. The runner is not allowed to score on an umpire mistake, besides the fact that he would not have been allowed to score when the third out was called. Any reversal of a call happens after the conclusion of the play.

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Jul 20, 2011 1:42 PM (in response to DuckMike)
    Re: Proper Ruling

    Duckie, you say the play was eventually reversed.  Could you tell me in what manner did this happen?  Did the OM go out and chat with the Field Umpire and in doing so convince him that he might have missed it and if he could, check with the HPU?   If so, that is an appeal.    TM

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