Runner on 2nd, 2 outs, hit to SS, he fields the ball throws to 1st, umpire signals out but, then points to HP Ump for verification if 1st baseman was on the bag, he is called safe.My team starts to leave field on out call, runner rounds 3rd and scores? Shouldn't the runner have to go back to 3rd? there was no chance he would have scored... shouldn't the out still stand???
I have never had this happen and haven't had a chance to look it up.
1) Reversals of calls at first (and other bases for that matter) happen. They're legal. The "safe" stands. They happen often enough that you should be prepared for the possibility.
2) The run scores.
3) If you've never had a reversal happen you're really new at this.
This play is actually not specifically covered in any rule book.
In cases where plays are not specifically covered, umpires are allowed to use judgement and common sense in issuing rulings, per Rule 9.01(c) in the Major League rule book (there are similar rules in almost all rule books).
In this case, using common sense, the batter-runner would be placed at first and the original runner on second would be placed back at third.
The base umpire must initiate getting help from the plate umpire. However, this genearlly takes a minute or so. The defense cannot be responsible for runners running the bases while umpires are conferring. For that matter, if umpires were conferring, there would be no umpire available to rule on any subsequent plays at any base.
Hope this helps.
I think Cubbie has the correct answer.....it is not covered by any rule. I do know however, I have never seen an umpire call the out and then immediately look to the HPU for clarification. This is done during relaxed play on appeal. If no appeal the out stands, if appeal overturns the original call the baserunners should be placed at the bases they would have normally advanced to. TM
Checking with the home plate umpire for a pulled foot at first is a standard mechanic. So much so that its actually specifically covered by most clinics and is a part of the Little League umpire school.
The field umpire did not actually do it 'right' in that he should have first checked with the home plate umpire immediately for a pulled foot if he suspected it might be possible, and only made his call after checking with home plate. The correct mechanic is to point to home plate and ask "Did he pull his foot?" to which the home plate umpire answers yes or not, not safe or out. The field umpire makes the safe/out call. Still, the field umpire calling the out (ball beat runner) then checking is not too far out there as long as it was nothing more than a point. If the home plate umpire says he pulled his foot, then the call is safe. The runner is safe and to call him out anyways would be wrong.
This is never an 'appeal play'. An appeal is a specific term referring to a missed bag or failure to tag up (and it doesn't have to happen in relaxed action and most often doesn't). It would be very bad form in a case like this for umpires to confer after all was said and done and to THEN reverse a call. That is just plain bad umpiring. A pulled foot is never an appealable call. I'll admit that it is fairly common to see a coach request to a field umpire that the first baseman pulled his foot and then the two umpires will confer and possibly overturn a call during a timeout. Yes, that happens, but no, it is not actually correct form. Still, that is not an appeal. And, in a case like that the umpires could not place runners where they would have otherwise advanced to. At best they could put a runner back on 1st that was called out incorrectly.
This really isn't that uncommon, although the umpires did mess up a little in the order of actions. Not sure why it created such a drama.
Mackman, I am not disputing your opinion on how this is viewed by an umpire, I'm taking the other side. I know my teams once they hear of SEE the out call for the 3rd out, they hustle off the field (not uncommon) and the first baseman would either toss the ball to the umpire at first or roll it to the mound. This is very common occurance. For the umpire to call the out and signal the out should automatically have relaxed play begin. To say OOPS I might have missed it and confer with the HPU is just not good umpiring. Again, in many many years of coaching (and umpiring) I have never seen the senario you describe. You have basically UNRUNG the bell. This includes College and High School venues. TM
Ok, I can see the argument for the case that if this were the third out and the team started leaving the field, it would be unfair to penalize the team for that. However, there are better rules justifications for what to do to remedy the situation. I agree that this is somewhat of a 9.01(c) situation, but it is certainly not an appeal play. I think it would depend on how this occured. The post seemed to imply that the reversal was more or less immediate, in which case I think I'd have a hard time doing anything for the defense. If there really were some delay and it was clear the defense reacted to the calling of the third out and started leaving, then my argument would be that the calling of the third out essentially ended the inning, therefore all play is dead. Reversing that call would allow the runner to stay on third, but would not allow any other to advance.
I am not debating the umpire calling out and then with in a moment calling for the HU verification. I am not debating runner at first being called safe. BUT the runner that wasn't at third at the time of the out and only got their when the HU came out to make the call when asked, that is when the runner noticing our fielders and catcher had moved to follow the umpire or vacate the field.
On the note of how long I have played, since I was 3 and I am now 36, have played at all levels and have coached for 8 years. I have taken most courses that are available on coaching and know that over turning of plays are common. I have never seen a runner advance while the umpire's are conferring or making a call that should be a dead ball. I am a coach that doesn't believe in bending the rules to win and that is bending them...
By the way we won the game 9 to 1 and then we went on to win the Championship game beating out 14 teams.
I was not debating the runner being called safe at first, just the runner advancing while the HU came out to make the call of safe. The umpires the next day when we came to play mentioned in our situation the runner should have still been on 3rd and the runner on 1st who was safe because of the foot being pulled off. That is what I thought it should be and discussed with them before the end of the game. They came to me to tell me the runner should have still been on 3rd.
Thanks for your answer it was informative
That's freaky that you asked this question, because the exact same thing happened to us in a game on Saturday. BU called an out on a 4-3 grounder, which was a 3rd out. F3 rolled the ball to the pitcher's mound. Play was eventually reversed for a pulled foot. Runner kept going and scored from second. After conferring, runner was placed back at 3rd.
[Actually, the PU spontaneously called the F3 off the bag and changed the call without being asked (?!), but that part is beside-the-point to this story.
this is easy, the runner from third should have been put back on third, The home plate ump having seen the mistake should have called time and had a conference with the feild ump. The runner is not allowed to score on an umpire mistake, besides the fact that he would not have been allowed to score when the third out was called. Any reversal of a call happens after the conclusion of the play.
Duckie, you say the play was eventually reversed. Could you tell me in what manner did this happen? Did the OM go out and chat with the Field Umpire and in doing so convince him that he might have missed it and if he could, check with the HPU? If so, that is an appeal. TM