Right-handed pitcher, runner on 3B, OBR applies...
Pitcher is in the stretch. He assumes a balanced position and swings his left foot past the pitching rubber (towards 2B).
I'm assuming that it would be a balk if he then stepped to third base in a pick off attempt. My reasoning is that once his left foot passed the rubber, he would either need to go to 2B (but that doesn't apply here) or deliver a pitch to the plate. It seems comparable to not allowing a lefty pitcher to swing his right foot past the rubber and then attempt a pick off throw at 1B.
Am I correct?
The next scenario is more difficult to describe. Once again, RHP with a runner on 3B. This time, the pitcher is also in the stretch. His first move appears to be initiating a pitch...in that his throwing arm drops and swings wide in preparation for a throw. But, he hasn't yet made a stride to the plate! Can the pitcher still step directly to 3B for a pick off attempt? This might be one of this had to be there's. I'm thinking that it is a balk as his mechanics closely resemble loading up for a pitch.
Any insights are appreciated!
Glenn
The rules do not change based on the handedness of the pitcher. Does this help?
Somewhat...but the application of the rules vary depending upon the handedness of the pitcher in certain situations. For example, once a RHP lifts his left knee, he cannot throw to first base. However, since a LHP is facing first base, he can clearly lift his knee and then toss over to first base.
Glenn
Where does the rule separate RH from LH?
You are allowed to step and throw to first. Lets see you do that without lifting a knee.
Q: Can you step "heel first" or do you have to turn your foot and point with the toe?
A: Heel first is legal. All that's required is that you gain distance and direction.
gnagel60 wrote:
Right-handed pitcher, runner on 3B, OBR applies...
Pitcher is in the stretch. He assumes a balanced position and swings his left foot past the pitching rubber (towards 2B).
I'm assuming that it would be a balk if he then stepped to third base in a pick off attempt.
You are correct. It's straight out of OBR 8.05(a):
"Comment: If a lefthanded or righthanded pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off play."
I've always wondered why the rule book put both "lefthanded" and "righthanded" in the case book comment, and not just say, "If a pitcher swings..." I guess they just wanted to make it crystal clear that the rule applied to both.
gnagel60 wrote:
The next scenario is more difficult to describe. Once again, RHP with a runner on 3B. This time, the pitcher is also in the stretch. His first move appears to be initiating a pitch...in that his throwing arm drops and swings wide in preparation for a throw. But, he hasn't yet made a stride to the plate! Can the pitcher still step directly to 3B for a pick off attempt? This might be one of this had to be there's. I'm thinking that it is a balk as his mechanics closely resemble loading up for a pitch.
I'm having difficulty envisioning what you're describing. You say he's making some sort of arm motions, but he hasn't moved his feet yet?
A lefty pitcher makes the same arm motion whether he's going to pitch or throw to first or second. So don't get too hung up on what he does with his arms. I just don't understand from your description when this pitcher is making those motions.
I understand that the rules are the same for right and lefthanded pitchers. But, given the nature of the different directions that the pitchers are facing in the stretch, the application varies.
Maybe I'm way off here, but having attended baserunning clinics...a runner at 1B is instructed to move into a secondary lead (or break for a steal) the instant that a RHP lifts his knee. The reasoning is that the RHP now has distance and direction moving towards 3B---and if there isn't a runner on 3B, he must proceed with his pitch. He can not then turn and throw to first base--particularly when his knee rises up as high as his waist.
With a LHP the instruction in entirely different. Due to the nature of the LHP facing 1B, he can lift his knee high and then step straight towards 1B for a throw. He isn't changing direction--as a RHP must with the same move.
Glenn
Sorry, I know my description in the second situation was probably not very clear.
With a runner on 3B, the RHP lifted his left knee to about waist high...but he lifted it up straight and it did not cross the plane of the pitching rubber. In the meantime, his hands broke and he swung his throwing hand back towards second base--in preparation for what appeared to be a pitch to the plate. Since he hasn't moved towards the plate yet with his left foot...and his foot was lifted straight up and never broke the plane of the rubber....the question is whether he can now step directly towards 3B for a pick off attempt.
Hopefully this makes sense. I should probably post a link to a video of what I'm describing!
Glenn
He still hasn't commited to the pitch, so a move to 3B would be allowable. TM
You mean like a mirror image of a LHP going to 1B?
Think about it.
Rich:
You DO have me thinking about it! :-)
Here's what I have. As long as the non-pivot leg has NOT crossed the pitcher's plate, the pitcher is not yet committed to throwing home. (Same case for RHP or LHP.) Therefore, the RHP pitcher may make a play at 3B.
But here are a few other wrinkles.
ANY pitcher (RHP or LHP) CANNOT feint to 1B (unless he has clearly disengaged prior; now he's just a fielder). That IS defined as a balk. But I think (and I am sure you will slaughter me if I get this wrong), you can't balk to 2B or 3B by feinting AS LONG AS you disengage as part of the motion. Again, I will stipulate some confusion on this. But I am bringing a FEINT into the discussion which I believe is handled differently from a non-delivery to the plate followed by a play at a base (actual throw).
Point is, there are different rules for a feint or a play depending on which base you are thinking about.
Did I get that right?
Mike CVUA
Why do you think you need to disengage on the feint? It's under the "step and throw to a base" option (of the three options) of pitching, and I don't think it requires a disengagement.
gnagel60 wrote:
I understand that the rules are the same for right and lefthanded pitchers. But, given the nature of the different directions that the pitchers are facing in the stretch, the application varies.
Maybe I'm way off here, but having attended baserunning clinics...a runner at 1B is instructed to move into a secondary lead (or break for a steal) the instant that a RHP lifts his knee. The reasoning is that the RHP now has distance and direction moving towards 3B---and if there isn't a runner on 3B, he must proceed with his pitch. He can not then turn and throw to first base--particularly when his knee rises up as high as his waist.
With a LHP the instruction in entirely different. Due to the nature of the LHP facing 1B, he can lift his knee high and then step straight towards 1B for a throw. He isn't changing direction--as a RHP must with the same move.
Glenn
Your baserunning clinics are giving you bad advice. I have heard coaches tell runners to go on the heel lift. Either one will get you picked off.
Michael S. Taylor
To be honest, I'm baffled by the responses. I've been coaching for more than 20 years and umpired for a decade. I've attended numerous baserunning clinics.
I have never understood that a RHP could lift his non-pivot knee as high as his waist--and then deliver a pick off throw to 1B without being called for a balk. For one thing, he has effectively already moved his knee in the direction of 3B and appears to be in the process of initiating a delivery of the pitch to the plate.
Practically any instructional website I reference specifically points out that a RHP cannot lift his non-pivot knee and then turn to throw to 1B. Baserunners are instructed to watch the pitcher's feet as a trigger. Here are three example right off the top:
For example, InfoSports teaches the following:
"For a right hander with a runner on first, the runner usually looks at the pitcher's lift leg. If that comes up, the pitcher must go home (unless there are other runners on base)."
http://www.infosports.com/baseball/arch/2107a.htm
Here is another thread regarding this issue in which several umpires instruct a coach why the RHP cannot lift his knee that high and still execute a pick off move without being balked:
http://www.baseball-excellence.com/sbaseballforums/printthread.cfm?Forum=2&Topic=9413
Yet another reference to this topic from Coaches Corner:
http://nhaasports.countmein.com/CoachesCorner.aspx
There are numerous YouTube videos in which professional pitchers discuss this move as well and instruct young pitchers not to lift their non-pivot foot first or risk being called for a balk.
I suppose I could be wrong on this...the RHP not being able to lift his non-pivot knee as high as high waist and then turn to throw to first base..but .there are many (possibly most) who are also wrong with me! Baserunners are consistently instructed to watch the feet. In recent clinics, professional instructors place colored tape in the back of the pitcher's shoes...then tell the baserunners..if red moves, you move into secondary...if blue moves, get back!
What am I missing?
What you're missing is that virtully no one does a direct step from the rubber any more. They do a jab step move or a jump turn. They haven't done the direct step in so long hardly anyone remembers it. More importantly, a very large percentage of people think it's illegal becaue they never see it done.
It isn't.
Read 8.01 - slowly - several times. For both pitching positions it says the pitcher may go to bases from the rubber.
Another umpire (does mostly college games) in our area just provided me with the following explanation:
"8.01 (b) tells us that from the set position the pitcher can:
1. Legally disengage
2. Step and throw to a base
3. Pitch
You are addressing item 2 (when discussing the lifting of the knee of the RHP before throwing to 1B). The issue is that this can be difficult for a RHP without violating 8.05 (a) which prohibits him from making a motion associated with his delivery and failing to pitch. It is indeed in the eyes of the umpire.
Pro school teaches that if the knee comes straight up before the step...balk. A RHP stepping and throwing to first base should take a "glide step", that is lifting his foot up just enough to clear the ground and swing leftward stepping towards first, gaining distance and direction. Any lift of the knee will put him in jeopardy of balking. Clearly, a LHP does not experience this same issue as he is facing 1B, even when delivering a pitch to the plate."
I guess I'm OK continuing to instruct our baserunners to move on the knee lift of a RHP.
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