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15157 Views 45 Replies Latest reply: Dec 30, 2011 2:15 PM by Michael_Taylor RSS Go to original post 1 2 3 4 Previous Next
  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    30. Dec 21, 2011 10:35 AM (in response to NELL_blue)
    Overly Officious?

    NELL_blue wrote:

     

    In the case that started this thread, the official made a bad call based on the rules as written. A team had a championship stolen from it.


    I would have to disagree, based upon what beowulf wrote.  He is an official in Massachussetts, and has heard firsthand what the intent of the rule is.  You are basing your position from what is actually written.  You yourself pointed out that what is written and what is intended are two different beasts.  Just because what is written doesn't include raising one's arm for two seconds while running towards the end zone, that doesn't mean the act is not covered by the intent of the rule.

     

    NELL_blue wrote:

     

    Let me write one for you?  Bottom of game ending inning. Batter hits a home run over the fence, while rounding third he stops, turns to visitors dugout and makes like he is holding a machine gun and pretends to mow down the coaches and remaining visiting team. After 3 seconds of this, he continues and touches home plate for a walk off. Call?


    By rule, there's nothing I could do to negate the HR.  I could eject the player when he does this, but per OBR 9.01(d), the ejection wouldn't take effect until play ends, which would be after he touches home plate.  At most, this kid wouldn't be able to play in the next game.  But the run counts and the game is over.

     

    Under some other organization (perhaps NCAA and/or FED), the ejection could be immediate and negate the HR, but that's not the case for OBR and LL.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    31. Dec 21, 2011 2:15 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Overly Officious?

    Manny:

     

    The "problem" as I view it.

     

    It appears the "violation" or degree of the "violation" is judgemental on the part of any "one" official on the field; and the penalty invoked (itself) appears to be discretionary on the part of "one" official on the field.

     

    I personally attended no less than eight Massachusetts High School football games this past season.

    Some teams in playoff situations. and others potential championship teams.

     

    I saw ball-carriers, in the end zone, end zone bound, and completing  yardage gains not resulting in touchdowns, not being called for actions much worse than our subject player raising his arm.

     

    For example: a ball carrier extending both arms in wing-like fashion  enroute to a touchdown.

    Another who did a somersault in the end zone. There were others.

    Not the same officials doing all the games.

     

     

    Frank!

  • Michael_Taylor Community Moderator 318 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    32. Dec 22, 2011 3:09 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Overly Officious?

    And it is crap like what you witnessed that leads to officials calling a two second raising og his arm as taunting. Since Mass. uses NCAA rules, it is spot of the foul award. So evidently they enforced it properly. In Fed rules the touchdown would have counted. Football has shot theirselves in the foot by the players doing more outrageous celebrations, officials allowing it and ESPN showing it over and over. Kids see it and copy it, then they complain when they get called on it.

    An example was a NFL player scoring a touchdown, running to back of the endzone, setting the ball on the ground, putting his foot on the ball and doing an Angel in the Outfield imitation. I didn't understand what he was trying to do and it looked stupid. Hand the ball to the official and going celebrate or go to the sideline.

    I'm a equal opportunity hater of stuypid celebrations. I think they should throw flags on defenders acting like idiots after a tackle.





    Michael S. Taylor

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    33. Dec 23, 2011 4:56 AM (in response to Michael_Taylor)
    Overly Officious?

    You hit the nail straight on the head, Mike.  Kids see this stuff on TV all the time. They emulate their heros. I just wish we had better better heros.

    Taking pure emotion out of the game is wrong. Rules like this backfire eventually! 





    Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    34. Dec 23, 2011 11:25 AM (in response to beowulf37)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    beowulf:

     

    A "late" question,  you----being a MIAA ice hockey official----and me being curious....

     

    When a high school hockey player scores a goal.....invariably, what follows: his team-mates surround  him, hug him, some get kissed, some get mobbed under, and most certainly are " body-pounded" by  team-mates.

     

    Is any or all of the above-----construed, or could be construed, as----

     

    1)----taunting?

     

    2)---celebratory?

     

    3)---unsportsmanslike conduct?

     

    4)---a delay of game?

     

    One?  More than one?  None would apply?

     

     

    A) against a rule----not ordinarily  enforced?

     

    B) no rule exists banning the above  #1 thru #4?

     

    Frank!

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    36. Dec 23, 2011 7:48 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    There is no language in either Fed or MIAA ice hockey rules that define 'taunting' as such - and certainly not as specifically as the football rule does. 

     

    Having said that, what you dexscribe is certainly not #1, is #2, is not #3 and is generally not #4, unless other factors exist that, in my judgement, would make it so.  Ice hockey rules regarding unsportsmanlike conduct are quite broad (which I like) so a celebration or taunting, as the case may be, is whatever I think it is. 

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    37. Dec 24, 2011 8:14 AM (in response to beowulf37)
    Overly Officious?

    Interesting.....

     

    Thanx for that beowulf!.

     

    Frank!

  • Michael_Taylor Community Moderator 318 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    38. Dec 24, 2011 7:03 PM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Overly Officious?

    It will be a while before I can ask, I only see him at our local watering hole on Mondays. I doubt he will come out this Monday but if he does I will ask. He's a pretty good white hat and not a half bad liars poker player.





    Michael S. Taylor

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    39. Dec 26, 2011 2:00 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    Now that I have a bit of non-holiday relaxed time on my hands, my point in asking beowulf the question above, FWIW, right or wrong,  follows:......[in the form of an "editorial"----if I may]

     

    Given that the COMMON DENOMINATOR in all high school competitive sports are the STUDENT ATHLETES themselves.

    And given, as one or two  posters have touched on this thread, the endeavor is for these teen-age student athletes to come away with positive life's lessons learned; particularly in regard to respect for coaches, officials, opposing players, conduct, etc.

     

    Now when it comes to rules/penalties governing specific high school sports---- celebratory rules/conduct for one...  it is my opinion that all the student athletes, all high school sports, be required to be guided by the same MANDATED  limitations and restrictions, particularly in regard to celebratory  conduct.  Possibly some degree of "spin" would be  applicable to the offense and the penalty re  the specific sport being played... whether governed by MIAA or NCAA Rules---or, modifications thereof...... as applied to high school sports.

     

     

    My question to beowulf and his reply/comments to the subjects embodied in my #1,   #2, #3,   & #4---- brought forth my point.

    That being, basically for the most part, what is a mandated writtten offense and penalty in one high school sport should not be a judgemental offense and discretionary penalty applied in another high school sport.

     

    Frank!

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    40. Dec 26, 2011 8:35 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    Much as it pains me, I've got to agree with Frank.  The reason I don't care for football, other than the meatheads who play it, is the completely over-the-top sh!t that the officials take from the coaches,  IMHO the MIAA's "the field is an extention of the classroom" is a bucnh of crap.  You ever see anyone scream in the face of a teacher without repercussions?  Or two individuals engaging in a fight and not get suspended?  I'd just as soon not get f-bombed 20 times a game, but I certainly can't tag each one with a misconduct or Unsportsmanlike conduct penalty.  I have, on occasion told the offender to STFU and GTF away from me or he'll be one sorry POS.  sometimes they go crying to the coach.  Most of the time they don't.  If the coach questions me on it I'll ask him if he wants the misconduct for the original f-bomb directed at me, or an apology.  The apology will also carry a miscondduct.  It's up to him. 

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    41. Dec 27, 2011 8:14 AM (in response to beowulf37)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    beowulf wrote:  "Much as it pains me, I've got to agree with Frank."     

     

    Brings to mind the movie "Casablanca"------when Rick-[Bogart]--said, when he saw Ilsa-[Ingrid Bergman]---his former girl-friend, enter his establishment------quote: "Of ALL the gin mills in ALL the towns in ALL the world she walks into mine."  end quote!

     

    I say.... regard beowulf's "pain" comment:

     

    Of  ALL the active posters on ALL these boards that I would like  to have agreed with me, I would prefer not beowulf....but take some consolation in that he suffered some degree of "pain" in doing so. 

     

    But satisfied my point was made clear to him, his agreement---and surely, through him, to "Barack Obama"----that being another post, another day, another one of his responses, another subject---re the preserving of player's  safety.

     

    Frank! 

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    42. Dec 28, 2011 7:17 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Overly Officious?

    Back in my day, and in my area you played 3 sports. Football transitioned into Basketball that transitioned into Baseball. The QB, HB, WR and TE's and some DBs made the basketball team and many of them were then seen on the baseball field in spring. But our football coach taught humility to us. We/I never spiked the ball, we/I always handed it to the official. My coach would bench us for using foul language. 1n 1974 we had 2 All State football players, and coach taught them to never forget where they came from. Basketball season was indoors and similar with new coach, we played hard and worked hard, but didn't go far as taller kids from the city kicked our butts. But we loss with grace and never missed shaking hands in our defeat. Baseball was the great equalizer. Height didn't matter, strength didn't matter. In baseball the defense controls the ball, which we here all know is why it will be always different/AND BETTER IMHO/ Our coach of that time was tough and expected big things, and I was his catcher. Humilty and respect for the game is missing in Higher levels, as the kids emulate their heros. Thugs are in Football, thugs are in basketball. Baseball had it's thug years, but seems to have quietly cleaned it up! (Steroids was a problem)

     

    I agree with the statement that all the sports need to have the same levels of expectation when it comes to Sportsmanship. But it starts on hoping we can more heros to start living their life with some humility and appreciation for their God given gifts!

     

    Happy New Year all!!

     

    Dan





    Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    43. Dec 28, 2011 11:34 AM (in response to NELL_blue)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    Retro back to my days--- approximately 30 years from 1974---to the 1940's----and starting in Junior High School, grades 7, 8, & 9----the sports followed what you put up Dan.

    Once in high school, ice hockey was included.

     

    One way a couple of high school coaches---from different schools, settled an issue between opposing baseball players.  A catcher, and a baserunner coming in from 3rd base....  came in with elbows high that the catcher took exception to; and "heated" words were exchanged between the two.  No one was ejected, both teams only had nine players that game;  but words were exchanged again when the same baserunner came to bat two innings later.

     

    At the end of the game it was very apparent to both coaches   these players had no love for each other.

    One coach, an ex-golden gloves boxer, suggested to the other coach that maybe the subject players should meet in the school gym; put on the boxing gloves; and duke it out to settle their differences.

     

    The other coach was all for it. Both went to their respective players and "sold" the idea of putting on the gloves in the school gym to settle the matter.  Both boys were all for it.

     

    The day and time arrived; the gloves were on, with a neutral referee overseeing the "contest."

     

    A bloody nose suffered in the 3rd round the "match" was stopped-----and the combatants shook hands.

     

    Both these boys became  buddies....enlisted in the military together when the Korean "War" broke out.

    One made it home, the other,  KIA, did not.

     

    I know because I was the catcher with the bloody nose. R.I.P. Jerry!

     

    Fully acknowledge-----an adult or two, would be brought up on "charges"  or a law-suit filed  if such a "settling" occurrence  was allowed to take place these days.

     

    Frank!

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