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1297 Views 9 Replies Latest reply: Mar 13, 2012 1:59 PM by NELL_blue RSS
Pete__300 Amateur 9 posts since
May 30, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Mar 11, 2012 10:49 AM

Starter or not a starter in LL

A first time manager in LL this year decided because starters play need not be consecutive, he makes substitutions just before the game begins; and after lineup cards have been exchanged.  That way the starter can come back in anywhere in the lineup after the substitute has met manditory play. Is this legal? The players on the starting lineup didn't actually start the game because a substitute came in for them before the team actually took the field on offense or defense. The question then is when is a starter considered a starter? When Lineup cards are exchanged, or when the team takes the field on offense or defense? Or if the first 3 batters get out in the top of the first, can a substitute enter for the 6th batter before they take the field on defense?

  • Mark_S Pro 70 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Mar 11, 2012 11:16 AM (in response to Pete__300)
    Starter or not a starter in LL

    First questions is WHY????

     

    The line-ups are official when exchanged at the plate conference.  So he can make substitutes anytime after that.

     

    I don't understand what advantage the manager thinks he is gaining by this strategy.  Seems like he is limiting his options.  Why not just start the "subs" and sub the "starters" where he wants them when he wants.

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 592 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Mar 11, 2012 1:12 PM (in response to Pete__300)
    Starter or not a starter in LL

    Yeah why?

     

    IMO, the coach can sub whenever he wants to, but he better darn well be careful!  What he gives me at the plate conference should be complete!  There better be at least 9 players present--no players listed as a starter who isn't there ready to play.  If he does not have 9, we wait, and then I'll turn it over to the BOD.

     

    If he makes a substitution, he has to know that he can't put that "starter" back in until the sub does 6 and one!

     

    Also, he will be VERY vulnerable to a BOO sitch for unannounced changes.  So he better have the discipline!

     

    Don't look for trouble,m but this guy's nuts!

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Mar 12, 2012 6:28 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Starter or not a starter in LL

    I agree with everyone.  This guys is making things hard on himself, and I don't see the advantage to do this.

     

    For one thing, he's burning his starters' re-entry the first time that they enter the game.

     

    Also, he will be VERY vulnerable to a BOO sitch for unannounced changes.  So he better have the discipline!

     


    Sorry Mike.  But this is simply not true.  An unannounced substitution can never be batting out of turn.  Batting out of turn can only occur among the 9 players who are already in the line-up.  If a player enters when he's not eligible to return, that's an illegal substitution.  Not batting out of turn.

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 592 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Mar 12, 2012 8:34 AM (in response to Mason_Dixon_Blue)
    Starter or not a starter in LL

    MDB:

     

    Don't think so!

     

    If MY official lineup says ABLE is batting, and Sammy comes up, I don't care.  But on appeal, the defense may ask why ABLE didn't bat.  And I will rule BOO.

     

    Remember that the lineup connects with the NAME of the players in the game.  If Sammy is an unannounced sub, I still have ABLE as the proper batter.  It is incumbent upon the Manager to tell me.

     

    Now if Sammy had come into the game for Able defensively, any play that he was associated with would be legitimate.  But the batting order is the batting order.  (That's why I'd like to see more leagues require the PU to keep that up to date.)

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Mark_S Pro 70 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Mar 12, 2012 9:03 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Starter or not a starter in LL

    Mike;

     

    This is specifically covered in the LLRIM (Instructors comments under 3.08(b)). If Sammy was an eligible substitute this is NOT BOO.

     

    "If a substitute batter enters the batter’s box and is not announced, this is considered an "unannounced substitution", not batting out of turn."

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Mar 12, 2012 4:59 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: Starter or not a starter in LL

    If MY official lineup says ABLE is batting, and Sammy comes up, I don't care.  But on appeal, the defense may ask why ABLE didn't bat.  And I will rule BOO

    Sorry Mike, that's still incorrect.  If Sammy isn't in the current batting order, he is an unannounced substitute. 

    Unannounced substitutes are legal.  Batting out of turn can only happen among the 9 players in the batting order.

     

    Please read 3.08.(a) and (b)

    3.08(a): If no annnoouncement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered to have entered the game when - (2) If a batter, the substitute takes a position in the batter's box;

     

    3.08(b): Any play made by, or on, any of the above mentioned unannounced substitutes shall be legal.

     

     

    Remember that the lineup connects with the NAME of the players in the game.  If Sammy is an unannounced sub, I still have ABLE as the proper batter.  It is incumbent upon the Manager to tell me

    If Sammy is an unannounced substitute, he has legally entered the game.  Able is no longer in the game.  He has been removed for a substitute.  How can he be the proper batter?

    Now if Sammy had come into the game for Able defensively, any play that he was associated with would be legitimate.  But the batting order is the batting order.  (That's why I'd like to see more leagues require the PU to keep that up to date.)

    The batting is indeed the batting order.  But the batting order changes when a substitute replaces a starter.  Now the substitute is in the batting order, and the starter is removed for that substitute.

     

    Here is the exact wording from the RIM quote that Mark provided earlier; "If a substitute batter enters the batter’s box and is not announced, this is considered an “unannounced substitution”, not batting out of turn. If announcers are used, the announcer should only announce the batter who is physically standing in the batter’s box, not the player who is due up to bat."

  • Mark_in_SD Legend 207 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Mar 12, 2012 3:15 PM (in response to Pete__300)
    Re: Starter or not a starter in LL

    OK.  IMO, this guy is an idiot.  Now NEITHER his starters NOR his subs can re-enter.

     

    Perfectly legal, but he is setting himself up for headaches.  What if a kid gets injured after this stunt?  Now he is in the "other manager chooses" zone right off the bat.  It seems to me that he just took away all of his flexibility.

     

    I will state that there is one caveat here.  This is legal UNLESS he is trying to do this with his starting pitcher.  The pitcher listed on the starting lineup is REQUIRED to pitch to the first batter until he is either put out or reaches base.

  • Mark_in_SD Legend 207 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Mar 12, 2012 3:17 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: Starter or not a starter in LL

    Is this really Mike???  This is basic baseball substitution rules here.  An unannounced sub is still a sub and there is no BOO.

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Mar 13, 2012 1:59 PM (in response to Mark_in_SD)
    Re: Starter or not a starter in LL

    I would tend to be watching closely a coach who would do this kind of manuever.  I hate seedy moves or questionable tactics.  Legal, maybe, smart?  No so much!





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