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1535 Views 9 Replies Latest reply: Apr 12, 2012 2:34 PM by Rich_Ives RSS
DuckMike Pro 88 posts since
Nov 5, 2003
Currently Being Moderated

Apr 11, 2012 9:25 AM

Place the Runner

R1, less than two outs, takes off on a straight steal.  Batter pops one to shallow CF.  Meanwhile, R1 is around 2B.  F8 makes the catch and rushes the throw back to 1B.  It goes in dugout while R1 is still past 2B.

 

What to place the runner?

If R1 does not retrace steps to 1B, even after ball goes out of play, is he subject to being put out on appeal?

If he does retrace, whether or not he was required to do so, is the base award now from 1st?

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Apr 11, 2012 10:08 AM (in response to DuckMike)
    Place the Runner

    Since this is NOT a first play by an infiedler, it's 2 bases TOT.  Score the runner.

     

    This is an unmistakable appeal on R1 not tagging up;  F8 erred on the appeal by throwing the ball away.  IMO, further appeal is moot!

     

    IMO if R1 does retraces his steps to re-touch first base, I don't care!  The ball is dead, and I will award based on the TOT or TOP criterion that applied when the ball was last alive.

     

    (Whew!  Can't wait for the "Last time by" discussion that's bound to fllow!  LOL!)

     

    Mike CVUA

  • SpudDuck__1 Rookie 3 posts since
    Jun 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Apr 11, 2012 10:20 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Place the Runner

    Thanks -- that helps. 

     

    It does raise another question.  If the ball had been caught by F6 in shallow CF, does anything change?  I wanna say that the "first play" by the infielder was catching the ball, so your analysis still applies and it's TOT, not TOP.  Agree or disagree?

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Apr 11, 2012 1:50 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Place the Runner

    I agree that the award is two bases from the TOT (no matter who catches the fly ball).

     

    On the rest, I respectfully disagree.

     

    I don't have the reference handy, but appeals made during continuous action do not count as erring on the first appeal. So, if R1 does not return to touch first base, he is liable to be called out on appeal.

     

    At the moment the ball goes out of play, the award is to home (since R1 was beyond 2B at TOT). However, if R1 retouches first base, the award is then changed to third base.

     

    There is probably more, but here is some support for that ruling from the OBR book, comment after 7.05(i) (also in the LL RIM as an Instructor Comment):

    If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

     

    Thanks,

    Mark


  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Apr 11, 2012 2:34 PM (in response to DuckMike)
    Place the Runner

    Mark_P is correct. Essentially the same play is in the MLBUM.  Not only does it specify the initial and revised awaard, it shows that an appeal is possible.

     

    5.10 AWARD MADE FROM ORIGINAL BASE AFTER CATCH

    A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even

    though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while

    the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base-see Section 5.11), and

    the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook Comments following Official

    Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)

    Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on

    first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right

    fielder's throw to first s wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when

    the wild throw is made.

    Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw).

    However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore,

    because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return

    to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not

    return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner

    properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base

    (two bases from his original base).

     

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Apr 12, 2012 9:21 AM (in response to DuckMike)
    Place the Runner

    Relaxed action?  The ball is out of play, it's dead.  "Time.  You (pointing toward R1) are awarded home."  That's it.  It's the runner's responsibility to run the bases correctly.  You don't have to wait for him to do it. 

     

    Assuming this is OBR, an appeal needs to be made while the ball is live.  If the runner is returning to prior bases to re-tag, you wouldn't put the ball into play until he's done. 

     

    Regarding the passage from the MLBUM, I thought OBR allowed runners who have reached following bases after the ball enters DBT to re-tag (as opposed to FED).  But if that's what it says, that's what it says. 

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Apr 12, 2012 2:33 PM (in response to beowulf37)
    Place the Runner

    The difference in FED and OBR is:

     

    R1 is beyond 2B but not yet at 3B at the time the ball goes dead (NOT when it's thrown - when it goes dead):

     

    FED - runner cannot return to touch 1B

     

    OBR runner can return unless he touches 3B (third base) after the ball goes dead.

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Apr 12, 2012 2:34 PM (in response to DuckMike)
    Place the Runner

    You just announce the award - let the player and coach worry (and defense) about what they have to do.  Don't help or hinder them.

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