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3489 Views 24 Replies Latest reply: May 30, 2012 11:06 AM by beowulf37 1 2 Previous Next
Mark_in_SD Legend 207 posts since
May 25, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

May 11, 2012 11:29 AM

I messed up.  What (if anything) do I do to fix it?

Let me start by saying I messed up.  Let me continue by saying that I told the manager I had an extended discussion with last night that the same thing as I was letting him chew on me.  Before I tell you why I was being chewed on, let me give you the play and you tell me what I should have done (besides the obvious).

 

LL Majors game (60').  R2, 2 outs.  I'm FU.  BR hits a blooper to short right center that is splitting F4, F8, and F9.  F9 pulls up but both F4 and F8 come in hard.  There is a pretty good collision that results in F4 kneeing F8 pretty hard in the head has he flies over him.  The ball rolls away from the collision and F9 chases it down as F4 scrambles to his fee and also chases after the ball.  F8 stays on the ground.  R2 scores easily and the BR holds at 2nd.  After the BR has stopped at 2nd, F9 throws the ball to F1 who is near the mound  I glance at F8 (who is now on his knees but clearly wants/needs attention) and then follow the throw.  The throw looks to be about head high and on target and I'm primed to kill the play as soon as F1 has the ball.  The ball hits F1's glove and my hands are already coming up and my mouth is already open.  As I'm calling "Time", I see the ball tip off the glove and start start rolling towards dead ball territory.  F5 never moves towards the ball, F1 gives chase but he has no chance of tracking it down, and F2 scurries up the line towards the ball.  Although I'm praying that the ball either misses the dead ball territory and hits the dugout fence or that F2 tracks it down, neither happens and the ball rolls into dead ball territory.  Now I've got one dugout calling out that R2 should get 3rd and the other dugout ignoring their fielder and calling that the ball was called dead.

 

SIGH.  Yes, I have a mess on my hands.  Thoughts before I tell you what I did.  BTW, it was 8-3 in the top of the 5th with the team on offense (who had a MUCH better record) behind.

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. May 11, 2012 11:51 AM (in response to Mark_in_SD)
    I messed up. What (if anything) do I do to fix it?

    Mark:

     

    Do you have any kids?  If your child went down in such a serious mishap, wouldn't you want someone to get out there and take care of him?

     

    OK, the rules allow you as an umpire to allow a play to continue until it is clearly over BEFORE you call time to tend to an ermergency.  In fact, the rules almost suggest that youy should!

     

    But you are a Dad too.  Your instincts tell you that the kid needs help now.  If you ignored the rule and helped the kid, do you think it would change the way the world revolves?  Would it affect the World Series 20 years from now?  Probably not.

     

    Regardless, once you say the magic word, "Time!"  the ball is dead, and anything else that happens is moot.  (Ask my buddy Frank, who was PU in the LLWS who ruled a ball fair that had hit the front of 3B, and U3 called it foul.)  That's for better or worse, but the ball is dead.

     

    Don't grieve over this!  I have blown much more basic calls than that, and I did feel lower than hammered duty for a bit.  As an umpire, you blow 'em as you sees 'em, and then you have to rule on the next play with 100% objectivity.  That is tough to do.  But you do it.

     

    I had a play in Seniors once where R1 was trying to avoid F4.  He snapped his ankle big time!  The ball got away, and I called time.  The OM said I should have let the play continue because R2 could have scored.  My answer, "That's what the rule says, but I'm a dad too!" 

     

    FWIW.

     

    Mike CVUA

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010

    I start off every year telling coaches that Umps are impartial to both teams and that safety of the kids is paramount. Helmets, no head first slides, no excess swinging of bats, etc.

    Mark_in_SD wrote:

     

     

     

    LL Majors game (60').  R2, 2 outs.  I'm FU.  BR hits a blooper to short right center that is splitting F4, F8, and F9.  F9 pulls up but both F4 and F8 come in hard.  There is a pretty good collision that results in F4 kneeing F8 pretty hard in the head has he flies over him.  The ball rolls away from the collision and F9 chases it down as F4 scrambles to his fee and also chases after the ball.  F8 stays on the ground. 

    Kill it, kill it right here....You saw F8 kneed in the head, correct?  Kill it right here.

     

    I then tell them I kill any play if there is a serious injury or perceived serious injury. This is LITTLE LEAGUE, not MLB.  I would have killed the play as I saw the injury happen and that needed assistance.

    In my opinion, and I am not criticising you in any way, you let the play go longer than I would have. I would have killed it, got the kid immediate assistance, and then placed the runners. DONE.

     

    The heck with the coaches, they get to locked into emotion, the smart thing to do is remember these are 12 year old kids and one is hurt and you are in charge.  That takes presidence over the G.A.M.E...  It's just a game.

     

    Now some here will tell you to follow the rules, and that we "protect the children" to much, or we are not officiating the injuries. They are wrong and will remain wrong.





    Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. May 12, 2012 10:51 AM (in response to NELL_blue)
    I messed up. What (if anything) do I do to fix it?

    LL  Rule 5.10(c)----"The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls "time."

    The umpire-in-chief shall call "time" -  when an accident incapacitates a player or an umpire."     [nothing in that rule about waiting for action to stop before calling time to tend to an injured player.]

    -----------------------------------------------

    Mike CVUA----

    Can you refer us to the LL rule that allows play to continue BEFORE tending to an EMERGENCY?  Or, one that .."almost suggests that you should?"     Not saying they don't exist, but would sure like to know the specific rule you spoke of.  

     

    Frank!

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. May 12, 2012 11:10 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: I messed up. What (if anything) do I do to fix it?

    Frank_B wrote:

     

     

    Can you refer us to the LL rule that allows play to continue BEFORE tending to an EMERGENCY?  Or, one that .."almost suggests that you should?"     Not saying they don't exist, but would sure like to know the specific rule you spoke of.  

     

    Frank!

     

    I'll take a stab at that one, Frank.  It's actually a pretty easy one.  Read a little further in the rule that you quoted.

    5.10(h) - Except in the cases stated in paragraphs (b) and (c)(1) of this rule, no umpire shall call "time" while a play is in progress.

     

    Paragraph (b) talks about light failure and Paragraph (c)(1) talks about an incapicated runner not being able to proceed to an awarded base.

    Other than those two items, the ball should remain alive until no further action is possible.

     

    The average play takes less than 10 seconds to complete.  Does anyone really think that those 10 seconds are really going to make a difference?

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007

    Thanks for your input  M-D.

     

    Yes--I did read all of which you cited prior to my last post.

     

    My thinking;

     

    My original citation was a complete sentence that stated play will be stopped when a player or umpire is incapacitated.

    5.10(h) cited 2 exceptions---spelled out in  in 5.10(c)(1)

     

    Then, I believe Mike CVUA--raised the bar when he said....."the rules allow play to continue.....BEFORE tending to an emergency."

     

    My question is: ....where in the rulebook is that rule stated?

     

    Emergency??  Is a 3rd baseman who took  a line drive, straight to the chest, and goes down, an emergency---warranting immediate stoppage of play?

     

    Or , as with my grandson, who suffered an asthma attack in center field.....an emergency warranting immediate stoppage of play?

     

    Or, the local umpire, many years ago, who suffered a heart attack, an emergency warranting stoppage of play?

     

    The injured player cited in the OP, was kneed in the head---and was looking for help---in the meantime the ball was being thrown around.....and rolling on the ground as the OP described; burning more than 10 seconds. Head injury?--With all the recent talk about athletes suffering concussions, the injured player not only should of been attended to immediately, with play stopped,---but also checked out by a medical professional and removed from the game.

     

    10 seconds? There does exist a medical school of thought that---"every second matters" in certain situations.

     

    Frank!

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. May 21, 2012 12:08 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: I messed up. What (if anything) do I do to fix it?

    Frank,

     

    The 10 seconds that I stated is a bit of an exaggeration.  That would be from the beginning of the play, and 10 seconds would be a long one. 

    Usually, from the time of an injury until the play comes to a conclusion, it's more like 4-6 sesonds. 

    Is that 4-6 seconds really going to make a difference?  I don't think so.

     

     

    Frank_B wrote:

     

    There does exist a medical school of thought that---"every second matters" in certain situations.

     

    Actually, there's more concern with regards to "The Golden Hour"

    Emergency Responders look to get the patient to an Advanced Life Support Facility within an hour of their injury.

    (I've spent almost 37 years in Emergency Services.)

     

    In the grand scheme of things, 4, 6 or even 10 seconds will make no difference at all. 

    With this in mind, I always let the play run it's course before calling time.

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007

    For God's sake - PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!!

     

    I wouldn't have any problem killing the play as soon as I saw the kid get kneed in the head.  You can always place the kids after the fact.  Head injury in youth ball = immediate dead ball.  The game isn't really important enough to keep going with a head injury on the field.

     

    What's wrong with you? 

     

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010

    beowulf37 wrote:

     

    For God's sake - PROTECT THE CHILDREN!!!!

    I wouldn't have any problem killing the play as soon as I saw the kid get kneed in the head.  You can always place the kids after the fact.  Head injury in youth ball = immediate dead ball.  The game isn't really important enough to keep going with a head injury on the field.

     

    What's wrong with you? 

    Thanks for not letting me down!!!!   





    Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007

    Thanks again for your input, M-D.

     

    About..."Usually, from the time of an injury until the play comes to a conclusion, it's more like 4-6 seconds."  Yes, agreed, under normal circumstances. Most likely an injury where the injured player either gets up, and rubs the injury off; or, stays on his feet and rubs the injury off..Other than an adult stating the usual question to the player---"Are you Okay?"  and getting a "yes" answer from the subject player--no harm no foul!  IOW---an injury not requiring his removal from the game, or, immediate medical attention.

     

    Then staying with the OP's own wording, and his reported observations, immediate AND belated observation, as to what happened and the severity of the hit and the results that he himself described... as the player.. "being on his knees but clearly wants/needs attention"----whereupon he turns his attention away from the injured player to follow the ball---until it FINALLY goes into DBT to end the play.   4-6 seconds?---I dont' think so!

     

    Also appears he was willing to keep live play going IF the ball was indeed retrieved by a defensive player before it went into DBT------4-6 seconds?--Play continuing---would  of added more time to the conclusion of the play as to when an adult, or whoever, can get to assist the injured player. As it was, the "normal" 4-6 seconds to the conclusion of a play was no longer  the case----In the OP's situation!

     

    If we stick with the honest description given us by the OP---as to:  VIZ:  (1)-- "both F4 and F8 coming in hard"

                                                                                                                           (2)--"F4 kneeing F8 pretty hard in the head"

    And then his  belated 2nd look at the injured player, commenting from that look, the  player....."being on his knees but clearly wants/needs attention"---then disregarding his own observation, and turning away to follow  the ball.

     

    I realize the umpire acted all in the heat of the moment---and is a good person for bringing the situation forward on this board....where we, with no urgency, as Monday morning qb's... can present our assesment as to what he should of done---particularly, when dealing  with a head injury to a child.

     

    How often do we in Little League read or hear---"Safety is our #1 priority."   More so when it comes to the kid's ages that parents/guardians turn over to us for safe keeping. ....or act in their best interests if their kid suffers an injury.

    Believe me, rules or no rules, continuing that subject game was not in the best interests of that subject injured player or his parents.

     

    Frank!

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007

    And I just went back and re-read your OP.  You "let the manager chew on you"?  What on God's green earth does THAT mean?   And "an extended conversation"???  Because you (belatedly) killed play with a potentially concussed 11-12 year old down on the field? 

     

    That's a "conversation" that never even gets started! 

     

    Again I ask - What is wrong with you? 

  • YoBlue! Expert 47 posts since
    Jun 24, 2007

    Don't beat yourself up. You might have been a little hasty in calling time but we're in this for the kids. You had that in mind when you stopped the game to make sure the player was attended to. Any manager who complained to me about that would be told I would do the exact same for one of his players and please return to the dugout. Then I would turn away and go see to the injured player. Don't let that "competitive level" override our main mission: Arbitrating a fair game, letter and spirit of the rules.





    "Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a  sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that  follows an automobile." - Christie Mathewson

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007

    M-D

     

    Apologize for the belated reply.

     

    In regard to my comment....."Every second matters" in certain situations"-----prompting your reply regarding "THE GOLDEN HOUR"----getting a victim to an Advanced Life Support Facility within an hour of their injury-----is very true, but does not negate my "seconds" comment; particularly in a situation where the victim has suffered cardiac arrest.

    It has been reported that a baseball player, and a hockey player, has suffered cardiac arrest when hit in the heart area with a batted ball, or hockey puck---both traveling at high speed.

     

    A recent article on little league online emphasized that "seconds" indeed do matter in a cardiac arrest scenario.

    Those early seconds with hands-on treatment, at the site,  might just determine whether or not getting the patient to an Advanced Life Support Facility within the Golden Hour will save a life or not.

     

    Those early seconds are inclusive in the Golden Hour.

    That's what defilibrators, in place, are all about.

     

    I saw and experienced where seconds mattered in combat, in regard to stopping blood flow by medics in the field---critical to saving a life before being able to evacuate the subject to a rear facility. Yes---the Golden Hour coming into play there too--albeit, it wasn't called the Golden Hour back then.

     

    Frank!

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. May 22, 2012 7:28 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: I messed up. What (if anything) do I do to fix it?

    Why are we talking about Golden Hours and valuable seconds???  This isn't rocket surgery guys!  Little League, kid gets a knee to the head.  KILL PLAY!  It doesn't matter if you've got a Golden Hour, Silver Seconds or whatever!  Chances are killing the play late isn't going to do the kid any harm, but it's the perception to everyone in the park. 

     

    And how the heck did "combat" get into this thread?  I feel like The Big Lebowski listening to Walter Sobchak.

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