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4125 Views 26 Replies Latest reply: Jul 12, 2012 10:13 AM by Mark__P RSS 1 2 Previous Next
Lou_B Community Moderator 1,319 posts since
May 25, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Jun 28, 2012 12:37 PM

LL Pitching in Resume Game

We haven't had much trouble with rain in the past several years so maybe that's why we haven't had a problem with this.

This year "Debby" is killing us so we've had a number of "resumed games" and managers are going crazy with the Tournament Rule:

 

g. In a game suspended by darkness, weather, or other causes and resumed the following calendar day, the pitcher of record at the time the game was halted may continue to the extent of his/her eligibility, provided he/she delivered 40 or less pitches, and subject to each of these conditions:

1 . If the pitcher delivered 20 or less pitches before the game was suspended, that pitcher’s pitch count will begin at zero for the continuation portion of the game;

2 . If the pitcher delivered between 21 and 40 pitches before the game was suspended, that pitcher’s pitch count will begin with the number of pitches delivered in that game;

 

h. In a game (“Game A”) suspended by darkness, weather, or other causes and resumed more than one calendar day later, the provisions of (g) above shall apply, unless the pitcher of record pitched in another game or games after Game A was halted. In that event, eligibility to pitch in the continuation portion of Game A shall be determined by the number of pitches delivered in the game or games after Game A was halted.

 

=========================================================================================================

So Game A (1st game in Pool Play) is suspended.  Pitcher A (who was on in relief) has thrown 35 pitches when the game is suspended.

Rather than resume Game A the next day, it is rescheduled to the end of Pool Play (so that the other games can be played as schedule).

So, five days later, at the end of Pool Play, Game A resumes.  Pitcher A is eligible to pitch so he retakes the mound and throws 32 pitches - game over.

 

The team wins the Pool and advances to the Second Part of the Tournament (Elimination Rounds) which starts two days later.

Manager puts in Pitcher A to start the first game.

Opposing Manager "Protests" and says Pitcher A is not eligible to pitch.

Manager says Yes he is, he only threw 32 pitches when he pitched two days ago so he only needs one day's rest.

Opposing Manager says No, the 32 pitches get "added to" the 35 he threw in the first part of Game A so he threw 67 pitches so he needs three days rest which makes him ineligible to pitch !!!

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Jun 28, 2012 1:41 PM (in response to Lou_B)
    LL Pitching in Resume Game

    I think we have an apples and oranges juxtaposition here!

     

    Assume that the pitcher did NOT pitch in any other games since the suspended one.  Then, the pitcher resumes the game with a pitch count of 35 by rule.  He may pitch a total of 75 which is the remaining eligibility in his game.  So by throwing only 32, he was legal to complete the game.  That's all that mattered with respect to the Pool Game #1!

     

    BUT REST only applies to the number of picthes thrown in ANY day.  Not the total of the first day and the last.  All that rule g/h does is it limits the total pitch count (both days) to 75.  But the pitcher on the DAY of the resumed game, only threw 32.  That means only 1 day rest!

     

    I think the Opposing Manager is scatologically over-burdened!

     

    So, how did the priotest turn out?

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Jun 28, 2012 4:12 PM (in response to Lou_B)
    LL Pitching in Resume Game

    LIttle League's Facebook discusion page is a better forum for getting a definitive answer to this type of question.

     

    http://www.facebook.com/LittleLeagueBaseballAndSoftball?sk=app_202980683107053

  • BlueBeak Legend 300 posts since
    Nov 26, 2002
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Jun 28, 2012 7:58 PM (in response to Mark__P)
    LL Pitching in Resume Game

    LIttle League's Facebook discusion page is a better forum for getting a definitive answer to this type of question.

     

    And why is that, Mark P?

     

    It seems to me that in Lou's description (taken from page T-16), rule (h) trumps rule (g) so the pitch count of 32 is the correct bench mark. Does facebook LL discussion page say differently?  If no, what makes it a "better forum"  in deference to the presented scenario?





    Time wounds all heels.....

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Jun 29, 2012 8:26 AM (in response to BlueBeak)
    LL Pitching in Resume Game

    BlueBeak wrote:

     

    LIttle League's Facebook discusion page is a better forum for getting a definitive answer to this type of question.

    And why is that, Mark P?

     

    It seems to me that in Lou's description (taken from page T-16), rule (h) trumps rule (g) so the pitch count of 32 is the correct bench mark. Does facebook LL discussion page say differently?  If no, what makes it a "better forum"  in deference to the presented scenario?

     

    The primary benefit of the LL Facebook discussion page is that, sometimes, Little League itself will offer its answer, which will trump our speculation ("It seems to me...")

     

    While the Facebook discusion page is very difficult to search, if a question has already been asked and answered, a regular poster will often post a link to the previous answer (which might inlcude an "official" response from LL).

     

    When I sady "this type of question", I was referring to:

    1. Questions on rules that are very LL specific, especially tournament-specific rules.

    and

    2. Questions on rules where there is some ambiguity in the wording. Lou posted the entire (relevant section of the) rule, then asked his question (in the form of a hypothetical(?) protest protest situation). The mere fact that Lou posted both the rule and the question suggests he felt there was some ambiguity in the written rule.

     

     

    I should also say that I agree that Pitcher A's future rest requirements should be determined only by the 32 pitches thrown in the resumption of Game A, but that is only my opinion and I would not consider it definitive.

     

     

    Other questions that come up for me after reading g and h and considering Lou's question:

    1. How many pitches may pitcher A throw in the resumption of Game A. If Game A is resumed the next day, the answer is clear - 50 (assuming a 12 year old). If Game A is not resumed the next day, does the answer depend on whether pitcher A pitched in other games in the meantime? That seems crazy to me. I thought if the game was not resumed the next day that every pitcher eligible to pitch when the game was resumed could throw 85 pitches in the resumption.

     

    2. What if pitcher A had thrown 41 pitches before game A was suspended. Under what conditions may he pitch in the resumption? Not if it is resumed the next day. If it is resumed after the next day, does it matter if pitcher A pitched in an intervening game?

     

    Thanks,

    Mark

  • Jon - M Pro 145 posts since
    Jun 12, 2009
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Jun 29, 2012 9:17 AM (in response to Mark__P)
    Re: LL Pitching in Resume Game

    Generally on the FB the best and most accurate answers come from the same folks that post here, yahoo and others.

    If you were to post this question there, Mr B. (and others) would still provide a detailed answer. LL often tries to ride the line with answers (not always), thus leaving them open to interp. and speculation.

    And don't forget:

    From the LL FB page guidlines:

    "This forum, and comments by us or anyone else do not constitute an "official" answer or position on any subject. The Rules, Regulations and Policies of Little League Baseball and Softball, along with the Charter Committee/Tournament Committee in Williamsport, are the final word on any issue or dispute. Amendments to the printed Rules and Regulations may be required from time to time, which become "official" when posted on the Little League web site at www.LittleLeague.org

    If you want to receive an answer in writing, or you have an issue that is personal in nature and you do not want others to see it, please contact the appropriate Regional Center listed here: http://www.littleleague.org/learn/about/contacts.htm"

  • BlueBeak Legend 300 posts since
    Nov 26, 2002
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Jun 29, 2012 4:28 PM (in response to Jon - M)
    Re: LL Pitching in Resume Game

    From Jon-M:

    Generally on the FB the best and most accurate answers come from the same folks that post here, yahoo and others.

    ED ZACHARY!  This is what I was driving at when I asked "why facebook" as opposed to here. Thanks Jon!

     

    If you were to post this question there, Mr B. (and others) would still provide a detailed answer. LL often tries to ride the line with answers (not always), thus leaving them open to interp. and speculation.

    Ed Zachary  again!

     

    From the LL FB page guidlines:

    "This forum, and comments by us or anyone else do not constitute an "official" answer or position on any subject.

    Yep! Just as useful or useless as the answers you get here.

     

    I guess I erred in my question to Mark P when I said "It seems to me...". On facebook, it is more, "it seems to them".

    Perhaps what I should have said that "it is as plain as the big beak on my bluebeak face that the answer is 32... (so why go to facebook for an interp)?"

     

    From Mark P:

    I should also say that I agree that Pitcher A's future rest requirements should be determined only by the 32 pitches thrown in the resumption of Game A, but that is only my opinion and I would not consider it definitive.

    You should definitety consider it definitive in the presented scenario. If coach protests, he will get a corroborating answer from up "on high" for this scenario.

     

    Your other questions/scenarios Mr. P could be presented here for discussion, or on facebook. The answers on either forum will NOT be official as you now should well know.





    Time wounds all heels.....

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Jul 2, 2012 6:32 AM (in response to Mark__P)
    LL Pitching in Resume Game

    Mark__P wrote:

     

    Other questions that come up for me after reading g and h and considering Lou's question:

    1. How many pitches may pitcher A throw in the resumption of Game A. If Game A is resumed the next day, the answer is clear - 50 (assuming a 12 year old). If Game A is not resumed the next day, does the answer depend on whether pitcher A pitched in other games in the meantime? That seems crazy to me. I thought if the game was not resumed the next day that every pitcher eligible to pitch when the game was resumed could throw 85 pitches in the resumption.

     


    As I understand "h", it does depend upon what happens between the called game and when it resumes.  If there is no game in between, then "g" applies, no matter how many days pass.  If there is a game in between, then "g" goes out the window, and the pitcher can pitch based upon eligibility requirements from the in-between game.

     

     

    Mark__P wrote:

     

    2. What if pitcher A had thrown 41 pitches before game A was suspended. Under what conditions may he pitch in the resumption? Not if it is resumed the next day. If it is resumed after the next day, does it matter if pitcher A pitched in an intervening game?


    Yes it does.  If he pitches in an intervening game, "g" goes away, so what he pitched in game A doesn't matter.  That's how I read "h".

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Jul 2, 2012 11:07 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    LL Pitching in Resume Game

    Unless and until another poster  on this subject can come up a with logical rebuttal to what Manny put up.....his last post I will take to the bank.

     

    Frank!

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Jul 2, 2012 11:49 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    LL Pitching in Resume Game

    The thing is that Manny has correctly (in my opinion) understood and paraphrased what is written in (g) and (h). However, I don't understand how it makes sense that a pitcher, by pitching more, gains eligibility.

     

    This leads me to believe that LL does not mean what it wrote. Perhaps there is some language that is still being carried forward from the days of only being allowed to pitch in alternate games. Or maybe I am not reading it correctly.

     

    At a high level, I think this is what's going on (my understanding of the spirit of the rule):

    1. If the game is resumed the next day, LL wants it to be kind of like the game never stopped. (with respect to pitching)

    2. If the game is resumed more than one day later, then LL wants it to be more like a new game. (with respect to pitching)

     

    The importance of point 1 is that if a game is continued the next day was treated like a new game, then a pitcher who had pitched 21-40 pitches would require at least 1 calendar day of rest and, thus, could not pitch in the resumption of the game the next day. So, with (g), LL is sacrificing its rest rule for the purpose of making the game seem more continuous (or alternatively, not unduly penalizing teams without pitching depth for suspended games).

     

    I kind of think that, in exchange for this relaxing of the rest rule, that they want a little penalty in return. Suppose Pitcher A pitches 40 pitches in Game A on Monday and Game A is resumed on Tuesday and Pitcher A throws 35 more pitches, for a total pitch count in Game A of 75. Now, Pitcher A wants to pitch on Thursday. For his 40 pitches on Monday, he needs two days of rest (Tue and Wed). For this 35 pitches on Tue, he needs one day of rest (Wed). So, if considered individually, he could pitch on Thu. But if the pitch count of 75 is applied to rule 4d, then Pitcher A would need 4 days of rest (either Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri or Wed, Thu, Fri, Sat). Or maybe LL is only trying to prevent a pitcher from throwing 125 pitches in a two day period and isn't that concerned about rest. To me, (g) seems vague on whether the carried-over pitch count is just to limit pitches in Game A or also for determining days of rest. (But in the OP situation, where (h) applies, it is obviously ridiculous for the carried-over pitch count to affect days of rest. Almost as ridiculous as it is to wipe out the carried-over pitch count just because Pitcher A throws _more_ pitches in the meantime)

     

    What I thought that LL meant to say in (h) is that if the game is resumed more than one day later, the only provision of (g) that applies is that the pitcher of record may continue to pitch - assuming they've met their days of rest from their previous outing (which might've been the start of Game A or might've been an intervening game).

     

     

    But that is not what they wrote, so who am I to put words in their mouth.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Jul 3, 2012 7:45 AM (in response to Lou_B)
    LL Pitching in Resume Game

    I will never, ever, "complain" about LL Rule 7.13 again!!      

     

    Frank!

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Jul 3, 2012 9:20 AM (in response to Lou_B)
    LL Pitching in Resume Game

    I guess I was wrong in assuming the protest in the OP was hypothetical.

     

    Lou - thanks for letting us know the result of the protest. One thing you were not clear about in the OP - did Team A play an intervening game and did Pitcher A pitch in an intervening game?

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Jul 3, 2012 11:57 AM (in response to Mark__P)
    Re: LL Pitching in Resume Game

    Mark, Lou wrote that the game in question was Game 1 of Pool Play, and then they played the rest of their pool games before resuming and finishing Game 1.  So there were intervening games.

     

    What I find incredulous with LL HQ's decision was that this ruling is not mentioned in the LL Tournament Pitching rules.  Nowhere does it say that the pitcher of record's pitch count in a called/resumed game is combined to determine his future eligibility, regardless of whether "g" or "h" applies.

     

    So, if I understand the ruling, here's what would happen:

     

    1.  12yo Jimmy pitched 20 pitches Monday, and the game was called.  The game resumed Tuesday, and Jimmy pitched 47 pitches.  Jimmy is now burdened with 20+47=67 pitches, so he must rest for four days.

     

    2.  12yo Jimmy pitched 20 pitches Monday, and the game was called.  The team played another game on Tuesday, and Jimmy didn't pitch.  The called game resumed on Thursday.  Jimmy may pitch up to 85 pitches on Thursday, but he only delivers 47 pitches.  Jimmy is now burdened with 20+47=67 pitches, so he must rest for four days.

     

    3. 12yo Jimmy pitched 20 pitches Monday, and the game was called.  The team played another game on Tuesday, and Jimmy pitched 40 pitches.  The called game resumed Friday.  Jimmy may pitch up to 85 pitches on Friday because he required two days of rest from Tuesday's outting.  Jimmy delivers all 85 pitches, so he is burdened with 20+85=105 pitches, so he must rest for four days.

     

    4.  12yo Jimmy pitched 40 pitches Monday, and the game was called.  The team played a bunch of games until the called game is resumed two weeks later.  Jimmy pitched in a couple of those games, so he is fully eligible for the resumed game.  He pitches ONE PITCH in the resumed game.  Jimmy is now burdened with 40+1=41 pitches, so he must rest two days.

     

    5.  Same as #4 above, except Jimmy DOESN'T PITCH in the resumed game.  Is he burdened with 40 pitches that carry over from the game was called?

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