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2131 Views 14 Replies Latest reply: Jul 3, 2012 3:43 PM by MarioF
Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
May 25, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

May 9, 2012 9:45 AM

OBR Appeals

I want to share a sitch I had in a 9-10 LLWS tournament to illustrate 2 points.

 

Sitch:  HT up 4-0.  Top 4th, VT has R2 and R3 with 2 out.  (I am PU in a 4-man crew.)

 

B4 homers.  R3 does the Nestea Plunge into the awaiting hands of his teammates, but he totally missed the plate.

 

HT manager asks for time, it's granted, and he replaces the pitcher.  F2 tells him about the missed plate.  Lots of a chatter, but the new F1 is warmed up, and we are ready to go.

 

I have my hand up;  I signal the new batter to take his place, pitcher then steps off, throws the ball to F2 who announces his desire to appeal the missed plate.  I say, "You have to wait until I put the ball back into play!"

 

Manager says, "Well just throw it wide!"

 

Pitches toes the rubber, catcher and batter are set, and I say, "Play!"  Pitcher then throws one wide.  I say, "Ball!"

 

Appeal is attempted and I tell them that with an intervening pitch or play, the appeal is moot.

 

HT manager asks for time and unloads.  (The maggot then turned his back on me after he wondered why I didn't help them more.  Should have kept him walking......)

 

Two points:

 

1.  The umpire is NOT the 10th defensive player, or for that matter the 3rd offensive coacher.

 

2.  In no rulebook I have seen does it say that the coaches cannot "coach" while the ball is in play by ghiving instruction from the dugout.  He had every right to walk his battery through the process.

 

Also, HT won 4-3 anyway.

 

 

FWIW!

 

Mike CVUA

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Jul 2, 2012 12:14 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: OBR Appeals

    Just catching up to old posts, because I haven't been here in a while, and because I can't access the LL Facebook discussion board from work.

     

    Here's something to ponder:  Under OBR, a pitcher may throw the ball to a base from the rubber to make an appeal.  Is there something written somewhere that says ANYTIME a pitcher throws towards home from the rubber, it must be considered a pitch, no Ifs, Ands, or Buts?

     

    The reason I ask was that it was pretty clear the defense was intending to appeal a missed base at home.  If everybody knows that's what's going to happen next, do we really disallow the appeal if the throw comes from the rubber?

     

    Something else for consideration:  OBR 2.00 says, "?A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter." [my emphasis in bold].  This wasn't a ball delivered to the batter; rather, it was a ball thrown to the catcher nowhere near home plate.

     

    Finally, rule 8.01(c) says, "At any time during the pitcher's preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw." [again my emphasis].  So, is home considered "any base"?  And if you know he's throwing to home to appeal, and he really makes no natural pitching motion but, rather, just steps and throws from the rubber, is that really a pitch that would negate an appeal?

     

    Stirring the pot to stir up the board...

  • BlueBeak Legend 300 posts since
    Nov 26, 2002
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Jul 2, 2012 2:27 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    OBR Appeals

    Was it a pitch? Obvious to the PU pitch? What if you as PU know it is not intended to be a pitch but an appeal yet thrown from the rubber, and what if the batter swings? Would that change what is an otherwise obvious appeal play, to that of a "pitch"? Probably not, but what if he hits it?. Is the intent to be an appeal? Seems so, but he swang (did I say "swang"). And he hit it (or not)

     

    the sound you may hear is quite possibly Mike CVUA circling the wagons. More to come I'm sure...... good stuff maybe





    Time wounds all heels.....

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Jul 2, 2012 9:10 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    OBR Appeals

    Why hadn't you put the ball in play?  There's no requirement that the batter be in the box first.

     

    5.11 --

    After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes position on the pitcher's plate with a new ball, or the same ball in said pitcher’s possession and the plate umpire calls "Play." The plate umpire shall call "Play" as soon as the pitcher takes position on the plate with possession of the ball.

     

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Jul 2, 2012 9:13 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    OBR Appeals

    The batter was in the box - the delivery was from the rubber - it was a pitch.

     

    Just like an IBB pitch.

  • MarioF Rookie 7 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Jul 3, 2012 12:28 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    OBR Appeals

    Hey Big M...

     

    The very first thing the pitcher needed to do was make an "obvious" attempt at an appeal. If the coach really said throw it wide, it seems to me he was clearly thinking any "pitch" would make the ball live and in play.....and he basically ordered his pitcher to pitch, not appeal. The PU couldn't very well say "I wouldn't do that if I were you..."

     

    Anyway, thats my 1.5 cents.  I miss you buddy!

  • BHanlon Pro 82 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Jul 3, 2012 5:27 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: OBR Appeals

    Sure sounds like a pitch to me, no appeal, sorry

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Jul 3, 2012 8:39 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    OBR Appeals

    Rich_Ives wrote:

     

    The batter was in the box - the delivery was from the rubber - it was a pitch.

     

    Just like an IBB pitch.


    Except that in the case of an IBB pitch, everybody--including the PU and the batter--knows the delivery of the ball from the rubber was intended as a pitch.

     

    I'm merely pointing out the rule citations that support my premise.  There is nothing I recall reading anywhere that says ALL deliveries from the rubber towards home plate are pitches.

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Jul 3, 2012 8:43 AM (in response to MarioF)
    OBR Appeals

    Hey Mario!  Long time!  Good to hear from you!

     

    If the manager made it VERY clear by saying something like, "Hey Bobby, just throw the ball to the catcher so we can appeal the miss of home," would that be enough to make it unmistakable?

     

    Again, I'm just stirring the pot a little....

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Jul 3, 2012 10:10 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    OBR Appeals

    If the manager made it VERY clear by saying something like, "Hey Bobby, just throw the ball to the catcher so we can appeal the miss of home," would that be enough to make it unmistakable?

    What if the pitcher then threw a perfect strike and the manager said to you, "I just said that to get in the batter's head. I knew the runner touched home and just wanted an easy first pitch strike."

     

    Similar to when the count gets to 3-2 on the big hitter and the manager shouts out, "Just walk him" and the catcher stands up with arm extended, but at the last moment crouches down to catch the pitch belt high down the middle for strike three.

     

    Just keeping the pot stirred...

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Jul 3, 2012 12:08 PM (in response to Mark__P)
    OBR Appeals

    Mark__P wrote:

     

     

     

    What if the pitcher then threw a perfect strike and the manager said to you, "I just said that to get in the batter's head. I knew the runner touched home and just wanted an easy first pitch strike."



    Then the PU could tell him, "Skip, you made it very clear and unmistakable to me that the pitcher was just throwing the ball to home for an appeal.  So why would I rule Ball or Strike on a throw?"

     

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Jul 3, 2012 12:28 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    OBR Appeals

    Manny_A wrote:

     

    Mark__P wrote:

     

     

     

    What if the pitcher then threw a perfect strike and the manager said to you, "I just said that to get in the batter's head. I knew the runner touched home and just wanted an easy first pitch strike."



    Then the PU could tell him, "Skip, you made it very clear and unmistakable to me that the pitcher was just throwing the ball to home for an appeal.  So why would I rule Ball or Strike on a throw?"

     

     

    And the manager could say, "I was talking to my pitcher, not to you."

  • HugoTafurst Legend 515 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Jul 3, 2012 1:56 PM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    OBR Appeals

    Rich_Ives wrote:

     

    Why hadn't you put the ball in play?  There's no requirement that the batter be in the box first.

     

    (snip)

     

     

     

     


    That's what I was wondering





    oops

  • MarioF Rookie 7 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Jul 3, 2012 3:43 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: OBR Appeals

    Manny, if the coach said "..throw the ball to the catcher to appeal..", then yes, that would be an appeal. (grin)

     

    All the talk about it not being an appeal ie: because the batter is in the box, the pitcher throws what looks like a pitch, etc would only count as a pitch if the PU doesnt see the action as an obvious appeal.

     

    Time to barbecue!

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