Skip navigation

NEED HELP?|

4104 Views 23 Replies Latest reply: Jul 6, 2012 2:33 PM by Frank_B 1 2 Previous Next
BlueBeak Legend 300 posts since
Nov 26, 2002
Currently Being Moderated

Jul 2, 2012 2:56 PM

Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

Looking for interp help here, the sitch:

 

LL Tournament, district game (does that matter?). We have the manager and 2 more coaches in the dugout which is not actually a dugout but a caged in section which allows for fans to be right next to the player dugout area. Just outside the "dugout" are 2-3 more men all wearing the same polo shirts as the coaches and are obvious participants in the program (hence the shirts) but are "spectators". The gentlemen are keeping the scorebook AND pitch count for their team. Conveying and recording game activities to the "real" coaches.

 

Opposing manager complains to the blue crew working the game that these are "extra" coaches and should not be permitted. The game director may be clue less and also biased. The blue crew tells the alleged offender that their "book" and pitch count will not be allowed for comparison if any disputes arise such as inelligibles, batting OOO etc. since the book is "in the stands". Blues tell manager to keep the book in the dugout and by your 3 man crew, or else it is useless.

 

Rule 3.09 separates "addressing and mingling". Coachers wanting to keep their "hand in", circumventing the 3 coach rule. Since official scorekeeper can (and does) err from time to time, the team scorebooks are used for decision fodder therefore can/should the "extraneous" scorebook be ignored based on the sitch? What else? Thoughts? Protests?





Time wounds all heels.....

  • MarioF Rookie 7 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Jul 3, 2012 12:38 AM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    10.22 allows a person other than the official scorekeeper to relay counts to the scorekeeper for notation in the book.

     

    Unless you have a local rule changing this, what rule specifically disallowed the act by the shirt matching spectators? What rule says the book has to be in the dugout?

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Jul 3, 2012 4:14 AM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    This one is easy!

     

    Can't have more than 3 adults in the dugout (or whatever they will define as a dugout).  The extra folks in the same polo shirts are "coincidences" with respect to this rule.  Would you be so upset if they exchanged stock trading tips or phone numbers of hot prospects rather than the score, BOO, or pitch count?

     

    The offical pitch count is kept by the official scorer's table.  Only one of the three adults mentioned above may come over to ask the pitch count, and there is usually a way by which the end-of-inning pitch count is relayed to each team.  (At least that is what is done in SE Reg.)  No one else may address the offical scorer's table.  Someone else in the fan base wants to count pitches?  Knock yourself out! But if it differes from what the official scorer has, tough!

     

    The official batting order and scoring is done by, well duh!, the official scorer.  If the manager wants someone to watch the BOO and other stuff, that's OK with me. Don't go too far with 3.09.  [In the regular season, the offical "book" might be a parent in the stands.......]

     

    Tell the opposing manager to get a deck of cards and deal with it!

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Jul 3, 2012 8:58 AM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    Why would you say there is no rule 10.22, BB?  10.00 are the scorekeeping rules that, a long time ago, were in the LL rulebook.  But for some reason, W-port decided to remove them and put them in a separate publication called, "What's the Score?"

     

    Unfortunately, I couldn't find the publication on the LL website, although this page refers to it:

     

    http://www.littleleague.org/media/newsarchive/03_2006/06scorekeeping_changes_12-06.htm

     

    To answer your question, this issue comes up EVERY year come tournament time.  As others have stated, there is no rule requiring scorebooks, pitch counts, batting orders, etc., be kept in the dugout by coaches.  The intent of 3.09 is to prevent on-field participants from leaving the dugout to carry on extended conversations with fans.  It never ceases to amaze me how anal some people get, even stringing up crime-scene tape around dugouts, to keep Mom from going up to ask Junior if he needs a Gatorade.

  • Kyle_ Legend 556 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Jul 3, 2012 2:00 PM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    The umpires can't require the dugout to keep a book. Lord knows they should (surely, one of the three adults can use a pencil), but it's not required.

     

    The mingling is taken at different levels of seriousness at different locations. In my local District, in tourney play, it's the death sentence to talk to spectators, including any book kept outside the dugout. (one of the reasons I don't work their tourney any more). Our local league has been to Williamsport, and noted that level decreases as they moved on, and is no big deal at Regionals and WP. But at our local level, nobody on the field is allowed to talk to the crowd. (Spectators are allowed to shout stuff down to the field "Appeal at first!", "That last guy was out of order", etc, as there's nothing to preclude that. )

     

    One benefits of the strict restriction is to keep the parents off the coaches and parents backs. In that respect, I see the good side of it.

     

    Is an un-official book of any use to the umpires or scorekeeper? I'd say no, for the same reason you wouldn't look at a parent's video replay of a play at the plate, or ask the fans to vote on caught ball. Once you head down that road.................

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Jul 3, 2012 1:57 PM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    The lineup should be kept by the umpire, so if the official scorekeeper has a question about who went into what spot in the lineup when, the PU should be able to answer. I also would not rely on team scorekeepers for this info. MPR is too important to take their word for it.

     

    With respect to BOOT, the key questions (in addition to the current state of the lineup) are:

    1. Who just finished their at-bat (usually standing on a base somewhere in case of BOOT), and

    2. Who batted just before the player who just finished their at-bat.

     

    #2 is the hard one. There is no particular reason that any umpire might remember the next-to-last batter and if the official scorekeeper and announcer weren't paying attention, what are you going to do? I think you have to let the managers make their cases and the umpires and other game officials make a decision. Having said that, I do have a vivid memory of being a team scorekeeper and standing up against a fence next to the official scorekeeper with the managers and umpires on the other side of the fence helping them work through the enforcement of a BOOT - but the facts were not in dispute.

     

    I can't really think of any scenario where it would be proper for the official scorekeeper/pitch counter to "take the team scorekeeper's word for it" on a pitch count or sub or other scoring issue. I don't see anything wrong with the team scorekeeper alerting the manager to a BOOT situation or a wrong score or outs on the scoreboard or even an incorrect count on the batter, but the manager needs to take it from there with the umpires and scorekeeper.

  • Echo Rookie 7 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Jul 3, 2012 2:48 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    3.09 states that:

    Players,managers and coaches of the participating teams shall not ADDRESS, or mingle with spectators, nor sit in the stands during a game in which they are engaged.

     

    RIM:

    Players,managers and coaches should not be allowed to carry on a conversation with anyone outside the limits of the playing field.

     

    I think this means they cannot address anyone through the fence. I think the probable reasoning is too limit what might be an unfair advantage. Little League is trying to limit the number of adults actively participating, they don’t want an expanded brain trust of adults and the focus they could bring to bear, upsetting the balance of what should be a kids game.  I think this goes along with 3.17, which limits the use of electronic communication equipment.

     

    It doesn’t eliminate this advantage but does restrict the effectiveness of this tactic.

     

    When you combine a rule an official interpretation and a district saying don’t allow it.  You have a strong case for not allowing it.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Jul 3, 2012 4:05 PM (in response to Kyle_)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    Echo:

     

    How about a Regional Hdqtrs. ruling. .."not allowing the scorebook out of the dugout.

     

    In a ruling, from ER, a link in the chain of command, handed down to me via email today;  where the scorebook was not kept in the dugout; and kept by a person outside the dugout;  that person not named as a manager or coach on the team's T.E.A. they ruled no can do. That person would be looked upon as a 4th illegal adult....and when brought to ER's attention, tantamount to a "protest"-----ER "would act on it" if the principals involved insisted on not correcting the problem.

     

    BTW---forgot to include the following email comments back to me today... stated by ER.

     

    "If its not and we get called, we will make it happen."  ["not"--meaning the scorebook "not" being kept in the dugout--->my note]

     

    "Also, if this is being done, the managers and coaches of the team are NOT to have any communication with this person and changes to the game (lineup, subs,etc.)"

    Caps as quoted!

     

    "Its not in the rulebook, but there are other rules that would apply......for instance, communication not permitted outside the dugout- could be considered a fourth coach.""

     

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We had a similiar local situation, during T-play, 2 years ago. In that case the scorebook was being carried and maintained in a coaches box.  ER ruled no can do in an email back to me at that time.

     

    Frank!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Jul 4, 2012 7:55 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    For the record, as regard the comment in the above post......".......that person not named as a manager  or a coach on the team's T.E.A."   there is an exception to that comment, which allows a manager or coach not named on the T.E.A. to work the scorebook in the dugout.   [I'm surprised the exception not picked up on by readers (here) of that post...but before somebody does]

     

    The exception being, as quoted from the rulebook....."If a manager or coach is unable to attend a game for a justifiable reason, a Tournament Director could approve a ***temporary replacement. Temporary replacement of a  manager or coach need not be entered on the Eligibility Afffidavit."    

     

    However....

    ***A temporary replacement for a manager or coach who has been ejected is not permitted at the next physically played game.

     

    Frank!

  • callblue Amateur 19 posts since
    Oct 23, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Jul 4, 2012 2:10 PM (in response to Kyle_)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    3.09 does not need to be interpreted anymore than what it states, "Players, managers and coaches should not be allowed to carry on a conversation with anyone outside the limits of the playing field." Since they within the limits of the playing fields, the umpires can tell them to stop, by enforcing the rule, if they are actively engaging in the conversation.

    If the mangers and coaches cannot stop this, we ask the TD to put an ed to it. There is a safety issue when an on deck batter is facing the fence talking to a parent or another "coach" with the back to the ball.

    As far as the "Official Book", it is a misnomer. I have always been taught/told that the PU's Lineup is the official lineup. We also are the official count. ALL changes are to go through the PU who records the players number, who they are replacing, whether it is the top or bottom half of the inning and how many outs, for MPR purposes. I only care about pitcher and catcher position changes.These are passed on to the opposing team and "Official Scorekeeper" by the PU. I also keep track of who made the last out for BOO purposes. This is why the protests come through us.

    We take both lineup cards and the pregame meeting at the plate, verify all players present to play on that card, any pitchers thatt are ineligible, verify the pitchers, than give each manager the opposing teams lineup and their's back. The WE give the "Offiicial Scorekeeper" the actual "Official" lineup.It is now the manager's responsibility to track the opposing and their own lineups according to this information. This was the same at my regional back in 2007.

    Back in the day when a MPR Violation was protested and a forfeiture would occur, I had a kid who did not get to bat. When protested, District, Region and Williamsport used my lineup cards to verify the protest, which was upheld.

    Sorry to ramble, but most people do not realize the extent of our responsibilities beyond calling balls and strikes and enforcing rules, but Tournament play is too important for us not to do our due diligence since the teams have workrd all season to get there.

    Kyle_ wrote:

     

    The umpires can't require the dugout to keep a book. Lord knows they should (surely, one of the three adults can use a pencil), but it's not required.

     

    The mingling is taken at different levels of seriousness at different locations. In my local District, in tourney play, it's the death sentence to talk to spectators, including any book kept outside the dugout. (one of the reasons I don't work their tourney any more). Our local league has been to Williamsport, and noted that level decreases as they moved on, and is no big deal at Regionals and WP. But at our local level, nobody on the field is allowed to talk to the crowd. (Spectators are allowed to shout stuff down to the field "Appeal at first!", "That last guy was out of order", etc, as there's nothing to preclude that. )

     

    One benefits of the strict restriction is to keep the parents off the coaches and parents backs. In that respect, I see the good side of it.

     

    Is an un-official book of any use to the umpires or scorekeeper? I'd say no, for the same reason you wouldn't look at a parent's video replay of a play at the plate, or ask the fans to vote on caught ball. Once you head down that road.................

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Jul 4, 2012 2:40 PM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    There is a rule 10

     

    It's published as "What's the Score" putting it in the rule book would add way too many pages to it.

     

    Get it at the LL store

     

    http://www.littleleaguestore.net/equipment---supplies-forms---publications.html

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Jul 4, 2012 3:42 PM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    Rich is correct as to the size of the subject publication in terms of adding "bulk" to the rulebook.

     

    16 pages of 81/2 x 11 staple-binded size sheets as it currently stands. Would probably add three x 16 as many pages to the current size of the rulebook. 

     

    I have had my copy for years, complete with the Rule 10.22 change that Manny alluded to.  [Re pitch-counts].

     

    Frank!

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Jul 5, 2012 6:20 AM (in response to Echo)
    Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    Seriously, where is the unfair advantage here? A dad keeping the scorebook just outside the dugout is really giving one team an advantage over the other?

     

    If that's your opinion, how would you handle a mom or dad shouting, "Hey, he missed home! Make the appeal!"  Or someone saying, "Hey, that kid isn't supposed to be up!" Are you going to disallow the team appealing these violations?  I hope not!

     

    Just because the district staff enforces a bogus policy, it doesn't make it correct.

1 2 Previous Next

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...