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1784 Views 11 Replies Latest reply: Jul 9, 2012 2:13 PM by Frank_B
Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
May 25, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Jul 8, 2012 10:17 AM

LLWS:  Double Play on INT?

Now this is "purely hypothetical" because it might have happened, but it didn't!

 

LLWS;  you are U2 in a 4-man crew.

 

Bottom 6, and HT is down 3 runs.  1 out.  R1.

 

You over hear the 1B coach say, "You have got to break up the double play!  Stay standing as you come in on a ground ball.  Don't slide!  Put your hands up to distract the fielder."

 

(For those of you in Rio Linda, the coach is telling R1 to commit INT.)

 

There is a room service double play to F6, and............

 

You fill in the blanks.  Try out the possibilities.  What would you call?  Would the fact that you overheard the coach modify your judgement or predisposition?  Would you say anything to the coach, manager, TD, etc. AFTER the game?

 

OK, here's what really happened:

 

Next batter hits a single, R1 makes it to 3B.

 

Coach says the SAME THING to the new R1!

 

R3 scores on a PB.  R1 advances to 2B.

 

Next batter fans.  (2 outs.)

 

Next batter walks.

 

Last batter grounds to a 6-4 Fielder's Choice, game over.

 

So we have the coach telling 2 R1s to take out the DP.  I am interested in your responses.

 

Mike CVUA

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Jul 9, 2012 6:30 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    LLWS: Double Play on INT?

    As to "what really happened"........and your  "interest in reponses." 

     

    1)--In your hypo...you have the coach telling R1 to......"BREAK UP the double play."     my caps!

     

    2)--In your "what really happened" you state...." coach says the SAME THING to the new R1."  your caps!

     

    3)--You follow that with...."So we have the coach telling 2R1's to TAKE OUTthe DP."    my caps!

     

    IMO---

    #1----is not a problem! Runners attempting to "breaking up double plays" is part of baseball. So long as legally done.

     

    #2---as in #1----saying the same thing to the new R1---is not a problem---so long as legally done.

     

    #3---you changed what the coach said to his runner, from:..."break up the double play"....to......"to take out the dp."

            " take out" is often related to physically taking out a player---albeit, not expressly stated!

     

    In your hypo, and in baseball,  the coach's instructions to R1 are part and parcel of the act of "distracting" the defensive player with the objective of "breaking up" a potential double play..  "Staying standing" ....in Little league, there is no must slide rule; so long as--in the umpire's judgment, an attempt was made to avoid contact  with the D-player;...... allowing for some contact if judged to be incidental.

     

    So, in #1 & #2-----coach is saying no more than what's expected of R1 in that situation, and what's taught by coaches in practices/scrimmage games.

     

    In #3----hopefully, due to the semantics change,  the runner does not take the coach's words "take out" to mean: illegally, physically, taking out the D-player.

          

    Frank!

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Jul 9, 2012 6:48 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    LLWS: Double Play on INT?

    I guess if I heard a coach say that, I would be a little more vigilant about what happens next, and rule accordingly.

     

    But as Frank mentions, there is no rule in LL requiring a runner going into the base on the front end of a potential DP to slide, such as the "Force Play Slide Rule" that exists in the NCAA and NFHS.  The runner can go in standing up if he wants to, and the fielder is expected to adjust for that possibility.  The runner can also slide in such a way that he can still reach the bag with his hand.

     

    What the runner cannot do is throw his arms up in the air, wave, slap at the fielder's arm or glove, etc.  That clearly shows intent to interfere with the throw.

     

    Frank said, "...in Little League, there is no must slide rule; so long as--in the umpire's judgment, an attempt was made to avoid contact with the D-player..."  That is not quite accurate for LL.  A runner may contact the defensive player with a legally-executed hook slide, similar to what is allowed in pro ball.  If he slides feet-first to the right of the base and he trips up the fielder, there is no violation as long as the runner can reach the bag with his hand.

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Jul 9, 2012 8:30 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    LLWS: Double Play on INT?

    Whoa, I don't know about that, Mike.  I would hope a well-coached pivot man would give himself a clear throwing lane to first base, and not attempt to intentionally nail the runner in the face!

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Jul 9, 2012 8:46 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    LLWS: Double Play on INT?

     

    A runner coming in standing also has the right to enjoy a Rawlings McMuffin if there is a well-coached second-baseman!  :-)

     

    Mike CVUA

    I heard that once before in the early 90's.  I still laugh very hard when I hear, or in this case read it.  Thanks for a great belly laugh!!





    Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Jul 9, 2012 8:54 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: LLWS: Double Play on INT?

      HI Manny:

     

    While agreeing totally with your last para
    ....starting with"Frank said".......My being well aware of what a runner may do legally as you described, having seen and heard it explained countless times by MLB announcers, I purposely did not reference what the baserunner can do  via a hook slide making legal contact with the defender, avoiding a violation.

    What I wrote in my original reply is quite accurate by written LL rules.

     

    I avoided it because we are talking little league this thread...and nowhere, unless I missed it, is that action by a baserunner mentioned in the rulebook, The Right Call, or the RIM. I'm not even sure if it is "mentioned" in MLB rulebook.

     

    Indeed, many times over the years, I have seen LL umpires call a baserunner for making contact with a defender for that very action. And all too often, asking a civil question and receiving a civil answer from umpire friends of mine, their reply being, where in the LL rulebook is that legal baserunner's action spelled out?

     

    Frank!

  • Kyle_ Legend 556 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Jul 9, 2012 8:53 AM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    LLWS: Double Play on INT?

    Now I'm looking for a foot up, waving hands or some sort of verbal INT from R1. Plus, they'd better be within reach of the bag.

     

    Thanks for the heads up, coach.

     

    Actually, more runners should do more than give themselves up, especially at the plate. If there's a late throw coming into the catcher, with other runners in play, that runner coming in should be taking that catcher out with a legal slide, if he's dumb enough to be near the plate. Don't let that catcher throw one of your teammates out, if you can prevent it. That's just smart baseball.

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Jul 9, 2012 9:13 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: LLWS: Double Play on INT?

    Frank_B wrote:

     

    I avoided it because we are talking little league this thread...and nowhere, unless I missed it, is that action by a baserunner mentioned in the rulebook, The Right Call, or the RIM. I'm not even sure if it is "mentioned" in MLB rulebook.



    Frank, it's in the RIM Instructor Comments under LL Rule 7.09(e):

     

    "If sliding into second base, the runner must be able to reach the base with hand or feet. If the sliding runner is not able to reach the base with his/her hand or feet, and in the umpire's judgment the slide caused the second baseman not to complete the double play, call interference and get the out at 1st base also."

     

    The implication from the IC is that if the runner while sliding causes the pivot man to abort his throw to first, but the runner was able to reach the base with his hand or foot, then there is no interference.  It's the same as in the pros, and I'm sure an authoritative interpretation has similar language to the IC.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Jul 9, 2012 10:49 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: LLWS: Double Play on INT?

    Thanks for that bit of information Manny. I missed that RIM IC totally......looking under 7.08; not 7.09.  Still living and learning!

     

    However, I think you, and maybe others (here) will agree....still fair to say, I did not mention the subject action by  a baserunner in my initial response to Mike CVUA because the item is totally absent in the LL Rulebook and The Right Call.

     

    Managers, coaches, and indeed, league officials, district people, and many umpires, notably service umps, DO NOT have  access to, or even aware the RIM exists-----and that's the way Williamsport wants it;  other than those privileged to have a legal copy of THE RIM-----via the Umpire Registry.

     

    Too many league personnel, and managers/coaches do not have the "inclination" to read the rulebook......far be it for me to "talk about" a subject with nothing in the rulebook to support the subject------or, for a coach to teach his players the proper way for a baserunner to legally make contact with a defender to break up a double play knowing all too well an umpire will invoke Rule 7.08 and call his baserunner out for deliberatly making contact with a defender---hands touching the target base or not.

     

    Frank!

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Jul 9, 2012 11:36 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: LLWS: Double Play on INT?

    Well, if you go by the strict reading of the rule, specifically 7.09(e), anything the retired runner does that hinders the pivot man would be considered interference, to include continuing to run to the base standing up.

     

    So, if you don't have the RIM, Frank, what do you use to justify your point above that "breaking up double plays is part of baseball"?  Where does it say in the LL rule book or case book under 6.05(l) or 7.09(e) that it is perfectly legal for a retired runner to contact a fielder while that fielder is attempting a throw?

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Jul 9, 2012 2:13 PM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: LLWS: Double Play on INT?

           Manny:   What I meant by...."breaking up double plays is part of baseball."

    That statement begs much needed clarification--which I failed to elaborate on, thinking it was not needed where that statement is  "accepted" as a general truism as applied to baseball.

     

    No way did I mean by way of a rule violation---and no doubt more prevalent in 90 foot adult leagues and MLB, than in little league; particularly not in 60 foot LL levels.

     

    Back to the RIM for a moment, page 59, 2012 RIM-----and your correct quoting of the IC's excerpt dealing with what is (legally) allowed for a baserunner to do in attempting to break up a double play; and my point being, basically, all for naught in LL play because that action by a baserunner is not covered in print in the LL Rulebook or The Right CALL... with the RIM, by Williamsport design, not being (legally) generally available.

     

    Note the little "do-dad"---->for lack of not knowing the correct name of that arrow preceeding the comment itself----and noted preceeding many other IC's excerpts throut the entire RIM.

     

    Page 2, of the 2012 RIM explains that "do-dad" as to what it means:

    Quote: "These notes are not part of any Rulebook publication, but are helpful comments or explanations from the Little League Headquarters. Included in this section will be rule interpretations, basic mechanics instructions and appropriate suggestions."  end quote!

     

    My note: Given the IC dealing with as it reads as quoted by you, not appearing in the LL rulebook, we can throw out as not "interpreting" a LL written rule or regulation, or policy as one does not exist; at least for the purpose of being available to the persons at league level to be taught, executed by baserunners, and ruled on by umpires.

     

    How can they?.... If the rank and file do not know what is printed on page 59 of the RIM...with no other OFFICIAL written source being generally available to all engaged in running the leagues, playing the games, and umpires rulings as to the correctnes as to what is happening in front of them, on the field.

     

    [Hell, I mention The RIM to some of my people and they think I'm talking about my vehicle needing a rim replaced.] 

     

    Frank!

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