Jul 13, 2012 8:57 AM
The Little league Inc. "RIM." ?????
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Given a relatively "slow board".....and as a result of a previous thread entitled.. "Double play on INT" put up by Mike CVUA; joined by myself, Manny and others; where Manny and myself entered into a civil discussion that more or less centered on "THE RIM"----and being aware I am possibly "stomping on sacred ground" I question the practicality of "The RIM" being of any value at league level, and specifically as an "aide" in settling controversies arising in an ongoing game regard the existence of a rule, the interpretaion of a rule, or the non-existence of a rule.
I do recognize its value in settling a controversy/debate/discussion among participants on these boards-----but stops there!
Why? [ and the answer to why?----is known to just about all of us posting on these boards]
Ans: By Willamsport's policy----"THE RIM"---and the way Williamsport wants it be----is only (legally) available to a selected few; hardly ever, unless "bootlegged".. available to settle a question at league level.
Case in point: Manny, in the aforementioned thread, correctly quoted a RIM excerpt that described the manner in which a LL baserunner could legally break-up a double play. Try telling that to a LL Umpire, manager, coach, protest committee, who have never seen a RIM, and even know one exists.
And recognized that the subject Manny quoted is not mentioned/written in ANY publication that is available, in general legal distribution to ALL Little league personnel. Rulebook, Right Call, Hometown, etc.
"You may fire when ready Gridley" ------> edited for historical correctness!
Frank!
That's been one of my issues forever. I don't see how you can use a 'secret' tome for much of anything. It's a great resource that should be available to all leagues.
Hey CB....Nice hearing from you; and agreed! ![]()
Hope all is well with you!
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At least, at minimum, one copy, be made available to every league president, as is the "Operating Manual"---with full knowledge to all league personnel; and yes, hired service umpires, that it's there to settle issues whenever needed. With its "treasure trove" of helpful information; some/much of which is not contained in the rulebook, and/or other available LL publications.
Heck, they make "Hometown" available on-line----40 pages! "THE RIM" 79 pages, with an exceptional well-defined helpful index, pages 78 & 79, as to referencing applicable rule or rules. What a waste not being available to the very venues the whole publication is all about.
What the hell is gained with LL Inc. by design, not making it available in one fashion or another to all bona fide league personnel-----making it only (legally) available to a limited/restricted number-----they, for the most part, not being of any help in resolving local game issues.
If the powers-that-be see fit to print, and make available "THE RIGHT CALL" ---granted only 55 booklet size pages--as an aide in settling potential game issues; the same thinking should prevail in making "THE RIM" available to settle that many more issues, if not all potential game issues. A "by-product" of which might well be minimizing or eliminating a protest.
Frank!
The RIM is what it is. It's a book that instructors use to teach umpires. You can't pull it out on the field, or the protest committee meeting, to settle rule intepretations. It was designed to be used at the Regional schools, so the instructors could all be on the same page, as it were, and teach the same things. And, it's also handy for us instructors at the field level.
It doesn't superceed the rulebook, or OM. If there are any differences, the RIM takes a back seat every time.
"What it doesn't do"... is exactly my point.
As far as "rule interpretations".... what is written on the bottom of page 2 of "THE RIM"....."included in this section will be rule interpretations"... by your count, is to be ignored even when "instructing at the field level." BTW---who is your "target audience" when instructing at "field level"?
So when does the very "volume" of what is embodied in the RIM dealing with the very rules and regulations in the rulebook; each rule and regulation cited by number in the RIM, of any worth to local leagues and game venues? By design, then never!
Again, what a waste of a valuable compilation of infomation pertaining to the rules and regulations governing a LL game.
Also, where in THE RIM are printed all the caveats you cited as to how and when the RIM is to be used by those selected number possessing one; or as a "student" at field level, if at all? It's nice to know all those making up the LL universe, being they students or possessors of the RIM, are all on "the same page."
That "same page" not being available to all the rank and file people making up local leagues, service umpires, and game venues being "deleted."
I've been involved in little league for well over four decades and never heard of THE RIM until on these boards.
And then we have highly intelligent posters here citing the RIM to make a point. Manny, for one, correctly quoting the manner in which a LL baserunner can legally break-up a double play. No mention made of that in the rulebook or Right Call. So how does a coach teach a player to do that, and an umpire to rule on the correctness of the action, if not aware of the action being supported by THE RIM.
Frank!
Hey frank - I'm back living in a LL town & umpiring there so I'm back at eteamz.
A BIG welcome back Jim.
Don't know if you are aware or not---where we first met face to face; old Ryan Field in Charlestown was renovated, lights and all, compliments of the City of Boston. Great for the Townie kids.
Albeit, not in my District, but we back up to it on the north side.
The traffic problems, as you well know, are horrific---with that rotary still in place, and the 93 overpass taken down.
lots of "talk" about an "over and under" re-do, but appears not in my life time.
Son-in-law fights that every morning and evening, coming off 93, to get to Rutherford Avenue and reverse in the PM. His workplace next to Hood Milk.
The good news, his place moving to Peabody asap!
Anyway not to digress any further----looking forward to your posts on these boards. Always did, whether we agreed or not.
Good luck in your new town. Umpires of your ilk are too few and far between. I know, at one time, you trained the newbies at your previous locale.
Frank!
Didn't know it was renovated, my company has been out of Charlestown for years - after we moved to Newton we moved to Needham & became a virtual office - now most of the employees work from home so I went from 92 miles round trip commute to 0.
This town is more of a 'coaches league'. LOTS of the major's player play travel ball too so the league basically runs from Mon-Thu with a few Friday games thrown in. It's only a 12 game schedule and nobody plays on Saturdays.
Being the busybody I made my first task getting rid of the local 'must slide' rule. That was pretty easy. You may remember I asked about a year ago about where the LL statement of 'no league may make a must-slide' was. Between that & showing the UIC the statistics of sliding being the most dangerous baseball task a youth player can do, within 2 weeks I got the word the 'must slide' rule was gone. I haven't decided which of the next local rules to go after - either the 5 run max per inning or the curveball ban. These are BOTH in majors btw.
Depending on how long I stay in this area I may resurrect umpiring class. They use the kids on the bases but the training is minimal. Umpiring is looked on here as a necessary evil as opposed to a way to keep the older kids involved & give it more of a community feel.
Don Quixote rides again - where's the d*mn windmill?
Jim:
The "windmill" is in the eyes and minds of the "beholder."
Again, welome back; and many thanks to the moderator for allowing two old friends to settle back in....Off Topic! ![]()
Frank!
I too welcome you back CB.
5 run rule and curveball ban - ARRGGHH !!!! ![]()
As you well know, things take time so take it slow and easy and pick the fights you can win.
As for the RIM, I too wish LL would make it available on their Forms/Publications Page but for some reason they still don't.
That said, I see no reason why it can't be used as part of a Protest Committee Hearing, after all it "is" a LL Publication/Document.
Thanks Lou, appreciate it.
The curveball ban will be tough to get rid of, at this point the current UIC is in favor of it. I suppose I'll have to change his mind first. He seems like a good guy and it just may be a question of education. The 5 run rule for majors I don't understand. That may be my next target once I learn a little more as to why it came into being. If they're worried about blowouts I'd be more interested in having them use the 10 run rule. In the 2 years I've been here I've never even seen a game that the 10 run rule would have ended a game if it was in effect.
As you all know I'm no great fan of LL but since I'm now in a LL town I believe that LL rules s/b followed. it makes life a whole lot easier.
And why does my real name show up & not my screen name?
I don't view the RIM as a rule guide, but more like an exstrapolation of the book. It's just meant for teaching umpire classes, not define rules. Again, it is what it is ( to paraphase Popeye ).
If a local bans the curveball, they first have to define it. I'd really love to see some verbage about that. That would be hilarious.
"The ball shall not rotate more the 36 time before reaching the batter.................." Honestly, doesn't anyone think before the make this $#!+ up? You can't enforce what you can't define.
The five run rule for the Majors would need a waiver, as it's not a currnent option. That should be easy to dump.
Kyle:
You stated in your first post..."the RIM was designed to be used at the Regional schools."
At this time, that is in keeping with the title page of the 2012 RIM......"Prepared for THE 2012 Regional Umpire Schools."
So for written intents and purposes----use Of the RIM... STOPS with use at Regional level. {as "designed to"}
Yet, evidently, you see "value".... "as also handy for us instructors at field level."
You brought the use of the RIM to a "lower level"----that being "field level." {I asked you, in my first reply to you..."Who is your target audience at field level?} Or, define "field level.?" [Or, maybe, you took the 5th in not answering the original question].
Seeing as you do not see fit for the RIM to be available for use by LL Districts, leagues, manager, coaches; who then at field level are you instructing using the RIM? Contrary to the written design for its use only at Regional level---that you very clearly espouse.....but choose not to practice.
As often said on these boards...Can't have it both ways!
I can only believe you see how the RIM and its contents benefits your undertakings at field level--so you use it!
Same as myself and others here feel districts and local leagues would benefit from the RIM being available.
Again, keeping in mind, many issues on these boards are...."put to bed"---by intelligent persons, citing the RIM.
Also keeping in mind the RIM contains info pertaining to play on the field NOT expressed in any other LL publication.
Manny and I "talked" about one such excerpt in the RIM, on another thread.
Frank!
CB: If you decide to go after the curve ball ban, maybe you can use the LL Pitching Study as ammunition.
By the way, who (how) do they decide if it's a curve ball or not (I imagine it's Umpire Judgement) and what is the penalty if one is thrown?
Morning Frank.
I do see value and relevance of the RIM at the local level. Plus, it's pretty widely available, with a few taps of the keyboard. It's out there. I've been using it as a teaching aide for a few years.
I guess the question is, should it be distributed, on a world wide basis, for everyone to use? Tough call. It''s a teaching tool, not an authoritative document for rule interpretations. I think that's the trouble with pointing to it for guidance. It wasn't designed to be used as such.
Kyle
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