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1568 Views 11 Replies Latest reply: Jul 30, 2012 7:20 AM by Rich_Ives
BlueBeak Legend 300 posts since
Nov 26, 2002
Currently Being Moderated

Jul 26, 2012 4:33 PM

Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

Last week, district semi-final game, LL Major's. We have an illegal substituion. I'm U4, and the starting right fielder is subbed for in the top of the 3rd (ok so far).

 

The starting pitcher then reached his pitch limit (already) and coach brings in his 2nd pitcher. Unbeknownst to me (my bad) he brings in the kid on the bench who had just been subbed for. The kid squashes the rally of the other team who had made a 4 run deficit into a 1 run deficit and still had runners at the corners. NOBODY catches that starter and sub are in together.

 

Next inning. The illegal pitcher (his sub had still not met MPR, so was still in RF), mows down the side in order.

 

Next half inning, the sub comes up to bat. The Official-scorer (OS) realizes that something is wrong, sub and starter are in together. The Umps (me included) had not excercised due diligence to catch it when it happened.  The OS asks for time and we huddle. I suggest that the pitcher (though now on offense and who had yet to bat as the pitcher) be taken out until the sub reaches MPR and then the sub can be removed in favor of his starter. The manager of the offended team protests. The ruling handed down from region? Same as I had suggested.The next batter was the sub. He batted and was removed and the pitcher was allowed to pitch next half inning. Protest was denied at that point by WP even though the illegal pitcher A) squashed a rally and, B) mowed them down next inning. Protesting team loses, winning team loses the district final.

 

Meanwhile, I'm feeling nuttier than a squirrel turd for not catching this.

 

The floodgates are now opened.............





Time wounds all heels.....

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Jul 26, 2012 6:08 PM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Re: Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

    No flood in progress so the gate position doesn't matter.

     

    T Rule 10(f) Protests involving improper substitution not resolved before the next pitch or play shall not be considered. That's why it was denied.

     

    The normal procedure in LL is to remove the improper sub upon discovery. All else stands.  (Same in OBR).

     

     

    BTW - If your signature is meant to say tha time wounds all persons who treat you badly (a contemptible person) - that person is a heel, so it should read "Time wounds all heels".

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Jul 27, 2012 8:37 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

    ...and l all heels ahould be "stepped-on."      

     

     

    Holding the "gate ajar" for a moment......

     

    Would like to play some academic  "what ifs?" with BB's post; knowing full well the vets on this board, including BB, have no problem with understanding the situation presented by BB---and the correct reply by Rich Ives being right on.

     

    On the far-out chance that one or more novices reading BB's post, as it deals with LL T-Rules, may be confused with some verbiage used in the OP-----and the  application of some terms as applied to both LLT-Rules and LL regular season rules.

    [And in the interests of "jump starting" a slow board---take the following FWIW!

     

    I quote excerpts from the OP.....and my comments!

     

    "We have an illegal substitution, nobody catches that starter and sub in together"

    "The OS realizes that something is wrong, sub and starter sub and starter are in together."

     

             --------IF all applicable rules in T-play are COMPLIED with----in T-Play both starter and sub may be "in together."

      Not so in regular season play------UNLESS-----an injury, illness, ejection, permits the opposing manager to select a player previously used in the game, to re-enter the game as a 9th player to keep the game  going. Only if all eligible players have been used; ejected player(s) cannot re-enter under any circumstances.

     

    "The illegal pitcher mows down the side in order."

     

    -------------Now here the sub is referred to as an "illegal pitcher"------IF in fact he was an "illegal pitcher" - a different T-Rule would kick-in allowing for a protest to be filed "during" the game, or "after" the game, before either team affected by the protest begins another game.

    In regular season play--re an illegall pitcher or player, a protest may be filed before the umpire(s) leave the field at the end of the game.

     

    However, the subject player was correctly labeled as an "illegal substitution."

     

    Frank!

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Jul 27, 2012 9:27 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

    Rich_Ives wrote:

     

    T Rule 10(f) Protests involving improper substitution not resolved before the next pitch or play shall not be considered. That's why it was denied.



    So, some follow-on questions.  For clarity sake, let's call the starting RF Ralph, his sub Sam, and the starting pitcher Paul.

     

    The improper substitution took place the moment the manager indicated Ralph would now pitch for Paul, and it was accepted by the UIC and Official Scorer.  IF the opposing manager protested at that point:

     

    - What happens to Ralph?  Does he revert back to being tied with Sam, and once Sam meets MPR, he can be re-entered for Sam?  Or is he now tied to Paul's position in the batting order?

    - Can Ralph eventually come in to pitch later?  Or was he "physically removed from the mound" when the protest took place, and he loses his pitching eligibility for the game, even though he never threw a pitch?

    - Can Paul come back in and continue pitching right after the protest as if he was never replaced?  Or was he also "physically removed from the mound" when Ralph entered improperly?

     

    BTW, I'm surprised that WP allowed "Ralph" to continue pitching in the original scenario.  If the decision was to remove "Ralph" until "Sam" met his MPR, and then allow "Ralph" back into the game, why was "Ralph" allowed to continue pitching?  He was removed from the lineup to allow "Sam" to get his one at-bat, so he shouldn't have been allowed to re-enter as the pitcher, IMHO.

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Jul 27, 2012 9:39 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

    So, the net is that the manager gets to use his pitcher for the better part of two innings when he is supposed to be on the bench and because the umpires and official scorekeeper screwed up and, perhaps more importantly, the other team was asleep at the switch, there is _no_ penalty - not even taking him off the mound. I assume if the improper substitution had been noticed during one of his first two innings on the mound, he would have been removed from the game (as he was) and, thus, not been allowed to pitch for the remainder of the game even if allowed to re-enter.

     

    BB - do you have any opinion on whether the manager knew he was violating the substitution rule or just made a mistake? Also, was the other team made aware of the substitution in right field at the top of the third? Did the manager say anything to anyone about the fact that his pitcher was coming off the bench rather than just switching positions? Was it one of those cases where a bunch of kids are in and out of the dugout so it's not clear a sub was made? Or did the new pitcher just walk out of the dugout and no one thought to ask who he was subbing for?

     

    Sorry for all the questions, but I have one more. Were there two separate protests - one when the sub came up to bat and one more when the pitcher went back to the mound or were both questions addressed as part of the first protest call?

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Jul 27, 2012 10:48 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

    Manny_A wrote:

     

    So, some follow-on questions.  For clarity sake, let's call the starting RF Ralph, his sub Sam, and the starting pitcher Paul.

     

    The improper substitution took place the moment the manager indicated Ralph would now pitch for Paul, and it was accepted by the UIC and Official Scorer.  IF the opposing manager protested at that point:

     

    - What happens to Ralph?  Does he revert back to being tied with Sam, and once Sam meets MPR, he can be re-entered for Sam?  Or is he now tied to Paul's position in the batting order?

    - Can Ralph eventually come in to pitch later?  Or was he "physically removed from the mound" when the protest took place, and he loses his pitching eligibility for the game, even though he never threw a pitch?

    - Can Paul come back in and continue pitching right after the protest as if he was never replaced?  Or was he also "physically removed from the mound" when Ralph entered improperly?

     

    BTW, I'm surprised that WP allowed "Ralph" to continue pitching in the original scenario.  If the decision was to remove "Ralph" until "Sam" met his MPR, and then allow "Ralph" back into the game, why was "Ralph" allowed to continue pitching?  He was removed from the lineup to allow "Sam" to get his one at-bat, so he shouldn't have been allowed to re-enter as the pitcher, IMHO.

     

    If the improper subsitution had been protested immediately, I believe:

    1. Ralph goes back to the bench and can re-enter for Sam once Sam has met MPR

    2. Ralph can come back to pitch later because he was never legally the pitcher

    3. Paul cannot continue to pitch because the manager already removed him as the pitcher

     

    I admit, I'm a little vague on the rule support for 2 and 3, but this is what I have always understood to be the case if an attempted illegal substitution is caught before any play transpires.

     

    I believe Ralph was allowed to continue pitching under the original scenario because either:

    A. As Rich said, this was the topic of a subsequent protest and thus not resolved "immediately" (not clear from the OP if there was one protest or two)

    or

    B. WP decided that Ralph met the letter of the rule allowing a pitcher, who has met MPR, to be pinch-hit for, once, since Ralph was not physically replaced on the mound. Of course, Ralph was "removed for a substitute batter" but was removed for being an improper substitute. For me, this is enough to take Ralph off the mound for the rest of the game.

     

     

    Finally let me say that I'm not particularly fond of the wording in 10 f, "Protests involving improper substitution not resolved before the next pitch or play shall not be considered." Is the "next pitch or play" the one after the improper substitution or the one after the protest resulting from subsequently discovering the improper substitution. I believe it is the latter and the resolution of the protest in the OP was to put Ralph back on the bench until Sam completed MPR. So, all this phrase is saying is that once you protest an improper substitution, you can't protest it again. Is there any infraction that can be protested twice? Note, this is different (IMO) from the interpretation of the similar phrase on page T-11, "Protests involving playing rules not resolved before the next pitch or play shall not be considered." - which means you can't protest a misapplied rule from last inning, although you can protest an improper substitution from last inning (IMO). After all, if WP had not considered the (first) protest in the OP, Ralph would still be batting in Paul's spot and Sam would still be in the game.

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Jul 27, 2012 1:51 PM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

    Thanks for the additional info. And thanks for sharing the situation with us so we can all learn from it.

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Jul 29, 2012 7:30 PM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

    Why is it YOUR responsibility?  Changes go through PU. 

     

    I'm not contesting the "nuttier than a squirrel turd" comment, tho - I've seen your work..... 

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Jul 29, 2012 9:30 PM (in response to beowulf37)
    Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

    Under Little League rules it is the responsibility of all officially involved in the game to prevent protest situations.

     

    Regular season:  4.19(f) Note 2.

     

    Tournament:  Page T12 in the tournament rules "prevent a situation that may result in a forfeit".

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Jul 30, 2012 6:57 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

    So the third base umpire is responsible for making sure subs are legal?  Rats are as rats do, in this case making the umpire responisible for any error the coach makes. 

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Jul 30, 2012 7:20 AM (in response to beowulf37)
    Hello?? Here's one for discussion....

    If U3 knows it's a problem he is supposed to make sure it gets fixed. Why? Because LL rules say so.  It's not about rats.  It's about the rule book.

     

    If you don't want to deal with it avoid doing LL games.

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