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1827 Views 13 Replies Latest reply: Dec 6, 2012 10:28 AM by Manny_A RSS
Brad__453 Amateur
Brad__453
16 posts since
May 30, 2007
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Oct 15, 2012 11:38 AM

Fly ball - appeal?

Sitch - R2, 1 out.  Fly ball towards 2B.  F6, in the act of catching the ball, inadvertantly steps on 2B as they catch the ball.  R2 was somewhat oblivious, as was F6.  I'm yelling for F6 to tag 2B, and R2 realizes they should be on the bag.  F6  lunges back to tag the bag, just after R2 slides back in.

 

I discussed this with BU later, but I'd like your comments before we go into what he had to say.

  • Mike_CVUA Legend
    Mike_CVUA
    585 posts since
    May 25, 2007
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    1. Oct 15, 2012 2:00 PM (in response to Brad__453)
    Fly ball - appeal?

    Brad:

     

    This is an "appeal" play, albeit a continuous action one.  As the umpire, was it unmistakably an appeal, or was it just pure coincidence?

     

    (100% judgement)

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Lou_B Community Moderator
    Lou_B
    1,306 posts since
    May 25, 2007
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    2. Oct 15, 2012 4:08 PM (in response to Brad__453)
    Fly ball - appeal?

    Since you thought the stepping on 2b was "inadvertant" I would think the umpire might think likewise, so, it seems like it was NOT an umistakable appeal - play on!

  • Brad__453 Amateur
    Brad__453
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    3. Oct 16, 2012 7:09 AM (in response to Lou_B)
    Fly ball - appeal?

    So I discussed the fact that it's an appeal play, and BU disagreed.  I tried to explain, but gave up when it became clear that he simply doesn't understand the concept of a continuous action appeal.  He maintained that any contact with the base, however incidental, was good enough.

     

    I also got the same feeling when discussing what appeared to me to be INT by R1 on F3 on a popup right behind 1B.  Thankfully my daughter raced over from F4 and made an over the should catch, much to my amazement (she's usually not a very aggressive fielder, and usually runs like she's in a field of tulips, sorta tiptoeing).  So I casually discussed the play with him, and he didn't seem to understand the concept of a protected fielder.  Oh yeah, and he blew the call when my daughter made the throw to try and double the runner up, but there was nothing to dicuss about that call.

  • Rich_Ives Legend
    Rich_Ives
    1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
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    4. Oct 16, 2012 7:44 AM (in response to Brad__453)
    Fly ball - appeal?

    So discuss the lack of training with your league UIC if it's a league volunteer or take to concern to the umpire's association if he's a hired gun.

     

    If it's a new person just starting out don't expect him to have as much knowledge and skill as an experienced umpire.

  • Brad__453 Amateur
    Brad__453
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    May 30, 2007
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    5. Oct 16, 2012 10:57 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Fly ball - appeal?

    Rich, I wish it were that simple.  Although this umpire was bad(haven't seen him this year), at least he was young enough that he could get around the field and at least be in position to make his bad calls.  We have at least two that are well over 70, and however noble it is of them to be umpiring, the frustration caused by it takes so much away from the game - for the kids and the fans.  I am planning to at least ask one of the board members who to talk to regarding the umps.

     

    I'm guessing this particular ump has gone to yet another park/organization.  He ejected me for a single comment after he rung up a couple of kids on ankle high pitches, and one of the parents said they had been ejected by the same guy at a different park the year before.  When you have a quick trigger in ejecting parents, and those parents have to take the rest of the family out of the field complex while the game finishes, it makes for an interesting discussion with the president of the league.  I have 4 kids, and all of them were with me, so we all headed to the parking lot.  Once the game was over, I headed back to get the one that was playing, and then sought out the on duty board member, which happened to be the president.

  • Rich_Ives Legend
    Rich_Ives
    1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
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    6. Oct 16, 2012 8:53 PM (in response to Brad__453)
    Fly ball - appeal?

    Another goof - he can't eject spectators.

     

    Consider joining the umpire crew at your park. Be part of the solution.

  • Kyle_ Legend
    Kyle_
    556 posts since
    May 25, 2007
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    7. Oct 17, 2012 10:14 AM (in response to Brad__453)
    Re: Fly ball - appeal?

    So, in your opinion, the BU didn't properly apply a rule?

     

    I'm guessing that you didn't protest his rule misapplication either, right?

     

    When an umpire goofs on the ruling, it's the managers obligation to protest it. This puts in motion a chain of events designed to get the call right. The first is a required meeting of all the umpires on the field. They get together to discuss the ruling, and make a decision. If the umpires don't agree, the Umpire in Chief for the game has the final say.

     

    What happens after that is different for different rule sets. I'll guess this is Little League, so let me walk you through that square dance.

     

    If the manager doesn't agree with the rule interpretation of the crew, a formal protest is lodged, and recorded in the rule book. The manager then submits in a protest report, and a Protest Committee decideds the outcome. It can range from a denial, to a replay of the game from the point of the ruling, or even a forfeit.

     

    But, what's needed is that manager to do his part, know his job and duty to his team, and make that protest before the next pitch.

     

    So, how did the protest go, Brad?

  • Brad__453 Amateur
    Brad__453
    16 posts since
    May 30, 2007
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    8. Oct 23, 2012 12:00 PM (in response to Kyle_)
    Re: Fly ball - appeal?

    Kyle, re-read the OP.  My team was playing defense, so there's nothing to appeal since BU awarded the DP.  That is also why my conversation with BU was more of an inquiry after the inning.  It seemed obvious that F6 just happened to make contact with the bag and wasn't even aware of where the runners were, and kept moving casually after the catch without any acknowledgement at all of what had happened.  So I asked quietly if he saw it the same way, and he did... so I asked the question and he told me that it didn't matter...

     

    I'm just glad he's no longer working our league.

  • Rich_Ives Legend
    Rich_Ives
    1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Oct 25, 2012 1:54 PM (in response to Brad__453)
    Re: Fly ball - appeal?

    There's a rule misapplication. There is certainly something to protest.

     

    Or is getting the undeserved out more important that getting the umpire trained? 

     

    If so, why are you complaining anout the umpire not knowing the rule? 

     

    Or do you want the undeserved out this time but want the umpire trained for next time when you might be the victim instead of the benefactor?

  • Manny_A Legend
    Manny_A
    840 posts since
    May 25, 2007
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    10. Nov 28, 2012 11:51 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Fly ball - appeal?

    Rich_Ives wrote:

     

    There's a rule misapplication. There is certainly something to protest.

     

    Or is getting the undeserved out more important that getting the umpire trained? 

     

     


    I don't know of any coaches I've seen in my years of being involved in baseball and softball who would formally protest a call that went in his/her favor, Rich.  Would you?

     

    I agree that Brad should go to the powers-that-be to ensure this umpire gets the appropriate training.  But lodging a protest during the game that would benefit the opposing team??  The next time I see that happen will be the first.

  • Rich_Ives Legend
    Rich_Ives
    1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
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    11. Dec 4, 2012 7:33 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Fly ball - appeal?

    I didn't say he should protest.

     

    He said there was nothing that could be protested.  There certainly was.

  • Lou_B Community Moderator
    Lou_B
    1,306 posts since
    May 25, 2007
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    12. Dec 6, 2012 5:58 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Fly ball - appeal?

    A number of years ago while the PU for a game I had the manger of the team at-bat ask for time.

    I granted time and he walked up to me and asked me to call over the opposing manager "for a conference" - which I did.

    He then told us that his last batter (who was now standing on 1st base after hitting a single) had batted out of turn.

    The opposing manager then "protested" the BOOT and I invoked the proper penalty.

    The manager said he wanted to teach his players that they need to play by the rules and that there are consequences when violating the rules.

     

    I guess it was sort of like calling a penalty on yourself in golf when no one else saw the violation but YOU know you violated the rules!

  • Manny_A Legend
    Manny_A
    840 posts since
    May 25, 2007
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    13. Dec 6, 2012 10:28 AM (in response to Lou_B)
    Fly ball - appeal?

    Lou_B wrote:

     

    The manager said he wanted to teach his players that they need to play by the rules and that there are consequences when violating the rules.



    Admirable, I suppose.  This coach is clearly the rarest of exceptions; the vast majority of coaches I've seen would keep mum.

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