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2538 Views 19 Replies Latest reply: Feb 18, 2008 1:42 PM by Mike Ricci - D3 Multispor 1 2 Previous Next
IrishSailsman Rookie 197 posts since
Nov 18, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Mar 25, 2007 10:29 PM

Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

I realize this topic has probablly been played to the hilt, so I apoligize  !http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/frown.gif|src=http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/frown.gif|border=0!
What are the big advantages to HR training? And if there are many, how do I use it in training? Do I just try to stay in the lower zones on long days. I want to have the biggest aerobic engine possible, and all I hear about is HR.
I do track my HR, but I rarley let it guide my workouts. Recently I have started to try to keep it low on longer runs, but now I am wondering why, when I dont really know what I am doing with it!
I pretty much run neg splits on everything. Sometimes I start slower then others, but I pretty much run my *** of on the return no matter what.
  I am getting faster. 

  • pcsronbo006 Legend 1,323 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Mar 26, 2007 6:16 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    BIG topic and considering I am sitting in a hotel lobby, I'll keep it short

    The primary advantage of HR training IMHO is to keep you from getting hurt.

    Huh?

    ok, here is my logic

    assumption:
    1. most people overtrain or undertrain, if left to their own devices
    2. most people who overtrain, get injured.
    3. most people who go all out, all the time, are gonna poop out at the end of the long races unless they are some kind of genetic freak (i.e. lance)

    now, here is the short list of the zones. read the descriptions, but in short most training for long stuff is Z2. Then you do some Z3/4 near the mid/end of the cycle as "prep" for racing conditions and to get your body used to it. Since you have quoted Joe Friel a lot, I bet there is a section in there, but honestly I like the Sally Edwards books - its a foo foo writing style, but she has some solid science and logic behind it

    Training Zones

    Zone 1 Active Recovery (Zn1)
    This is the easiest and slowest training. The goal is to promote recovery by increasing blood flow to the
    muscles without incurring additional fatigue. The benefits of Zn1 are more of a function of the time spent
    training, rather than the intensity.
    % MHR: 60-65
    Rating of Perceived Exertion (RPE): Very, Very Light
    Zone 2 Endurance (Zn2)
    This training makes up the bulk of an endurance athletes training program. Intensity is low enough to allow
    for long workouts that push the limits of endurance. Lactate production is low, as is breathing rate.
    % MHR: 65-70
    RPE: Very Light to Fairly Light
    Zone 3 Steady State / Light Tempo (Zn3)
    This intensity is slightly higher than Zn2, but is still below threshold. This zone is used in early season in
    preparation for threshold intensities, and to vary pace in long aerobic workouts.
    % MHR: 70-80
    RPE: Somewhat Hard
    Zone 4 Threshold (Zn4)
    This intensity is just at lactate threshold. The aerobic system is highly stressed at this intensity, and
    improvements occur in lactate tolerance and velocity at threshold.
    % MHR: 80-85
    RPE: Hard
    Zone 5 Aerobic Power (Zn5)
    This intensity is performed above the lactate threshold. Lactate tolerance is highly stressed, and the
    durations are short, usually less than ~ 4 minutes. This intensity is also named “intervals” in running. The
    recovery between intervals is performed at Zn1.
    % MHR: 86+
    RPE: Very Hard
    Zone 6 Anaerobic Power (Zn6)
    This intensity involves controlled intense exertions for brief periods (i.e. seconds). Recoveries are long
    between reps. This intensity is used for race specific economy, with the focus on good form at high speeds.
    This is intensity is an all out sprint effort.
    RPE: Very Fast, but controlled

  • juliemboyle Rookie 810 posts since
    Nov 17, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Mar 26, 2007 6:29 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    I have only been doing the HR training for 4 weeks.  At first it was very frustrating because I felt like I had to "wog" walk/jog unstead of run.  I had to slow WAY down.  But, I can already go faster and stay in Z2, so I know it's working.

    Benefits:
    1) You don't kill yourself everytime you workout, so you end up with more energy over the week.
    2) Less Injuries.
    3) No guess work. My coach tells me what zone to be in and I KNOW I'm doing exactly what he wants me to do.
    4) It will get you faster, this is how all the pros train, um they must know what they're doing.
    5)  You also teach your body to burn fat and supossedly you can lose some stubborn pounds that way......I'm still waiting for this one!  

  • tri_coach06 Rookie 521 posts since
    Aug 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Mar 26, 2007 7:32 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    From a coach's perspective...

    HR does all the things mantioned above, but it does so much more. So many little things that the "average" guy doesn't know and really, doesn't need to know.

    Early season things like increase capilaries, increase in golgi apparatus, increase in CO2 clearance. Late season things like increase in VO2 max, Increase LT/AT, Ability to stay in a higher zone longer.

    The thing about HR zones and training is the testing and the communication betweent he coach and athlete. the coach can crunch the numbers and post the athletes zones, but the athlete has to comunincate back to the coach how they feel when in those zones.

    Examples:
    Athlete A: Athlete A is doing interval sessions where the athlete is doing longer sets of AT training (A later season workout.) The athlete is supposed to stay in zone high 3, low 4 for the entire lt session, say 8 minutes. Athlete A reports back to the coach that no matter how hard he tries, he cannot get into zone 4. His legs tire and he just does not have it.

    The coach has a couple choices.
    1) The athleles zones are set to high and the coach is asking the athlete to work to hard.
    2) The athlete is overtrained.
    3) The athlete is dogging it.

    Athelte B: Athlete B is doing a long ride on Saturday and is told to stay in zone 2. He is told that it is OK to have your HR climb during the climbs, but should try and get back to zone 2 within a few minutes of the increased exertion. The athlete does the workout and reports back to the coach that he was having trouble staying in the aero position and that he was having a hard time keeping his HR lowno matter how slow he went.

    The coach has a couple choices.
    1) The athlete has improved enough to warrant retesting.
    2) The athlete is a super human and only wants to train at race pace.
    3) The coach has set the numbers to low.

    These are real examples. Both of these athletes are mine and this what I did.

    Athlete A: He reported to me that he could not get his HR into an LT. I spoke with the athete and looked at his log. I looked back at what he had been doing and if he had been able to get into the zone prior and if he was able to stay there. In the past he was able to get into the zone and spend time there. he had been reporting poor sleeping habits for the last few days and his log was FULL of workouts. He was clearly overtrained. He was given 2 days completely off and 3 days off reduced workouts. He has since retested and is happy with the new numbers. This athlete will find himslef on the podium a lot this year.

    Athelte B: Athlete B called me on saturday afternoon and told me that he almost fell off his bike and that he felt like he wasted a whole day. Again I looked back at his schedule and noticed that he had complained about hte same type of thing prior. (I originally thought he was a superhuman.) However after this latest workout we decided that he needed an increase in HR zones. He was increased 5 beats in each zone and has been reporting good workouts. He has not retested as he is in a build phase and I do not want to interupt it. He will retest in 2 weeks. I want to mention that his increase was because of his willingness to stay in those zones. He test fantastic and his numbers were right when he started but has increase his fitness so fast that retesting every week is pointless.

    The season is early and it is crucial, especially on the bike to set your numbers and follow them. Of course this is only important if you want to have a good season. !http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/wink.gif|src=http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/wink.gif|border=0!

    Sheldon

    Sorry for the typos and spelling errors, I'm at work and don't have time to proof read this.

  • txdave13 Rookie 95 posts since
    Aug 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Mar 26, 2007 7:51 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    Head over to the basic training forum. The thread "Running isn't supposed to be easy" is a 7 page (currently) discussion of this very topic.

  • DavidD063 Rookie 360 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Mar 29, 2007 11:18 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    Some good things here. Also, check out all the posts in "Basebuilding, low heart rate training, a la Maffetone and Mark Allen."

  • jroden Rookie 1,350 posts since
    Dec 11, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Mar 29, 2007 8:21 PM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    What exactly is "HR" training?  Two of the posters, sheldon and ronbo were talking about structured training that happens across the whole spectrum of possible heartrates, while others were talking about long slow distance at very low heartrates, clearly two different types of training being called by the same two letter, so what's HR??

    I think for a triathlete, using the heart monitor as a proxy for power is probably close enough and will deliver much the same results as a wattage measuring device for way cheaper.

    If I was paying someone to coach me, I'd be measuring watts every workout and emailing the files to my coach for analysis.  Coaching is expensive, wattage is the most precise way to get your money's worth on the bike.

  • pcsronbo006 Legend 1,323 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Mar 31, 2007 3:20 PM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    HR = Heart Rate

    However, there are some issues/differences in the way to compute your max and zones. However, in the end they are saying the same thing.

    I don't know the names, but in the traditional zones they would be outlined like above and your month/qtr/season/year would have cyclical patterns in which you vary your training.

    Since I do have a coach, I haven't gone too nuts understand why/when for each but the GENERAL things I do get are (for endurance folk - and it's not sport specific):
    1. Lots of your time is in Z2 - Aerobic - conversational, easy to hold for hours, and easy to recover time. You're teaching your body to burn fat, you're burning calories, you are imprinting your muscles with the patterns you will need later in the harder stuff.
    2. As race season starts, more Z3 pops into it and moves you closer to LT, but without the damage of Z4 or the "I'm going so slow factor" of Z2.
    3. Limited but consistant use of Z4 to push LT upwards ovre time. Much harder on you, so shorter intervals of course this stuff takes a long time to recover from.

    There is also the Maffetone camp, which does virtually all time in Z2 except race day (if I understand it right). i'm not a huge fan of that because I am one of those people who if I train slow always, I will simply be slow. Race day isn't going to change that for me, I have no natural talent.

    The people with natural athletic ability tend (IMHO) to spend lots of time Z3/Z4. And because they recover fast (part of the "natural" ability comment..) they are ok. For those with NO natural ability, they spend time in Z4 they break, quick. So they have to have a real slow curve into it. When I started "running" I spent MOST of my time in Z1. And it took me a Loooong time to recover. A 3 mile Z1 run, 2 years ago, would take me a good 3 days to recover from. Using RPE I had "2" settings. I was a "1" - easy or "10" - I'm gonna die. There was nothing in the middle. That took lots of time.

    So in my opinion, HR training is PARAMOUNT for those with no natural ability or experience (or in my case, both). It can certainly benefit the naturals or experienced athletes, BUT it's going to be REAL frustrating. They already know how to listen to their body and can peg RPE with incredible accuracy. Coming into my 4th season I can now tell you my HR within 5beats without looking, most days.

    Hope this helps

  • DavidD063 Rookie 360 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Mar 31, 2007 9:26 PM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    quote:


    Originally posted by pcsronbo:

    HR = Heart Rate

    There is also the Maffetone camp, which does virtually all time in Z2 except race day (if I understand it right). i'm not a huge fan of that because I am one of those people who if I train slow always, I will simply be slow. Race day isn't going to change that for me, I have no natural talent.


     




    Not an accurate statement. The "slower" pace could be much faster than when you started. I went from 9:50 miles in that aerobic zone you mention, to about 7:30 after a few aerobic base periods over a few winters (along with a corresponding improvement in race times). Please read the "basebuilding, low heart rate training a la Maffetone and Allen" in the "Basic Training" forum.

  • pcsronbo006 Legend 1,323 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Apr 1, 2007 7:14 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    quote:


    Originally posted by DavidD:


    Not an accurate statement. The "slower" pace could be much faster than when you started. I went from 9:50 miles in that aerobic zone you mention, to about 7:30 after a few aerobic base periods over a few winters (along with a corresponding improvement in race times). Please read the "basebuilding, low heart rate training a la Maffetone and Allen" in the "Basic Training" forum.


     



    Yup, I fully admit I do not fully understand Maff strategies and results.

    Once I started some occasional speed work (and Z4 work), my times started dropping pretty quickly. Was it weight loss? (235 now, 250's last year, 275+ the prior) Was it aerobic fitness? Was it muscular strength? The answer is probably "yup" to all.

    When I get some time, I really should learn more about Maff... I'll add that to the todo...

  • 3chilipeppers Rookie 503 posts since
    Nov 3, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Apr 9, 2007 9:23 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    I haven't started HR training yet, but I'm about to because of everything I have read about it.  I'm waiting for my HRM to get here.  I understand Maffetone (training slow for about 12 weeks during off-season to increase aerobic fitness -- makes sense, sort of) and I understand the zones now (finally!).  Thanks! 

    My main question is the most accurate way to calculate max HR. If I subtract my age from 220, I get 188, but I'm pretty sure my max HR is higher than that. Do I add some because I am female? I've seen that. When I use Maff (180-age), I get 148 for my max aerobic HR. When I use 188 MHR, I get 150. If I add to that, I'll get even higher. I know the Polar site actually uses your morning resting HR to determine your zones. Maybe I'll do that when I get my HRM. I've seen comparisons of all the different methods, though, and they are all close. I think some work better for beginners and some work better for those who have been exercising for a while.

    I have been running for only 8 months, but I am in fairly good shape.  I ran a half marathon (at about an 11:00/mile) after just 6 months of running, then a 10K last month.  I'm doing a 5K this week (yes, I'm doing this all backwards), then I'll do a sprint tri in June.   I ran the 10K in under an hour with high heat and humidity and hills, and I should be able to run the 5K at less than a 9:00/mile (I ran one in 27:00 a week or so ago in training).  So, I'm not super fast, but I've made significant progress over 8 months.  Any opinions or insights on the MHR?

  • jroden Rookie 1,350 posts since
    Dec 11, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Apr 9, 2007 9:30 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    Just wear your heart monitor in a 5K and see what kind of values you are getting.  If you run some shorter sprint of say 200 m all out or really push a hill to the point where you have a stop at the top, you are close to your max HR, maybe a few beats shy.  The formulas really are not worth much.

    When you run a race of say an hour duration, the hr you settle into is somewhere around your current anaerobic threshold, assuming you are pushing hard enough that you are spanked at the end.  You should sustain a somewhat higher HR for a 5 mile race.  Your tempo should be done at or a bit below the hr you had for the 10 mile race, but as you train that value should increase.  Your max will stay static and decrease as you age, AT is trainable.

  • dave.macluskie Rookie 248 posts since
    Nov 1, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Apr 9, 2007 10:49 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    3chilipeppers - I second jroden's recommendation to wear the HRM during your 5k just to collect the data. I've got a solid 198 reading in two separate races last summer (both of them were hilly), which is higher than the 220 formula would give me as a 34 yr old. I have a Polar also, but I don't use the forumlas, zones, or other stuff it has. I just use it a data collector and set my own alarms for whatever HR I don't want to exceed during a given run.

    I've done the Maff thing for almost a year now, though in the last 4 months not so strictly. I throw in a tempo run every two weeks or so if I'm feeling fresh. Overall I've seen a pretty nice drop in my times. I can comfortably run 10 min/miles now at around 140bpm (70%) for me. I could barely race at that pace last year. More importantly, I've been mostly injury free. I had a total of two weeks off (in one week increments) last year.

    Enjoy your 5K! It should be a lot different than the HM you ran.

  • 3chilipeppers Rookie 503 posts since
    Nov 3, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Apr 10, 2007 8:31 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    Thanks!  That helps.  I'm not sure I'll have my HRM by the weekend.  I think it was getting here next week.  Oh, well.  I can figure it out by doing my own "race", though.  I figured the formulas weren't worth much.  I think my max is around 194 or so, which would correspond to the 226 formula for women.  It isn't hard for me to push myself to the limit.  I was doing that too much, which is why I'm going to do HR training.  I have also been injury free since I started.  I can't say that for my DH.  He tried to train for a HM in 3 months (he wasn't running before that), so he hurt his knee.  It is better now because he has slowed down some.  I have a friend that recently did the same thing training for this 5K.  She just pushed herself too hard.  She and I are going to do some HR training together.  That should be fun.  We run the same speed right now with about the same effort, so I bet we are close.  We're running the 5K together.  We only run together maybe once a week, then the rest is usually on the TM because we both have young kids.

    Again, thanks for the tips.  I like to see people who have such success with HR training.  Right now, my HR is around 150 when running 11:00/mile.  That's about all I know.  I used to barely be able to race at that speed (during the HM).  Now, I can easily race at a 9:00/mile.  I'd love to increase that through HR training.

  • 3chilipeppers Rookie 503 posts since
    Nov 3, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Apr 11, 2007 9:02 AM (in response to IrishSailsman)
    Re: Heart Rate.. I know, humor me

    I checked the tracking on my HRM, and it will be here Friday!  So, I will wear it for my race to get my max HR.  Again, thanks!  This HR training is going to really help me with my training for my first tri in June.

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