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14 Replies Last post: Jun 25, 2007 1:25 PM by mrinertia

liss037

7 posts since
May 23, 2005

Apr 28, 2007 8:50 AM

How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

Background: I?m 30; I?ve been running since April 2005 and consistently building mileage since March 2006; I?m currently running just under 40mpw in 6 runs per week. I was aiming to run a marathon at the end of October.

In the last month or so, three things have happened. My goal race was cancelled, which gives me the option of choosing another race around the same date, or of running a later race (end of November/beginning of December).

I picked up an injury which pretty much took me out for a couple of weeks (long-term hip problem, sports massage seems to be keeping it under control) and have just built back up to 39mpw with a 12.5mi long run.

Thirdly, I tried out a heart rate monitor, which tells me that I have been running much too fast ? my perceived easy pace (10min/mi) had my heart rate up at around 178! I?ve spent the last week?s running trying to keep it below 145, which takes me down to around a 12:30 pace. It would seem that I have rubbish aerobic fitness and have not really been training my body to burn fat so far.

My new ?easy? pace is becoming more comfortable as I get used to it, but means that I?ll be spending a lot more time on my feet ? my 12.5mi run will now take more than 2.5 hours.

I have two questions:

1. Moving my goal race to the end of November would give me 12 weeks before beginning an 18-week programme, rather than 7 if I chose a race close to my original goal. Would there be a substantial benefit to having this extra training time?

2. How can I make best use of the remains of my basebuilding period? I am completely happy to go out and plug away at lots of very slow miles if that?s the best thing to do, but don?t want to do anything that will be counterproductive.

Many, many thanks for any help.

marunr

162 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

1. Apr 28, 2007 7:19 PM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

What kind of marathon training do you plan to do? Are you just going to be adding mileage or are you running tempo runs, intervals, etc?

Southern Man

757 posts since
Apr 19, 2006

2. Apr 28, 2007 7:20 PM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

You have two priorities, in order.

1) Make sure you are healthy. If you are not healthy entering your training I am not sure I like your chances of getting through it in one piece.

2) Run as many miles as possible. The marathon preparation is about total mileage. It is fine if you want to do something tempoish once a week or to do some strides or pickups once a week, but don't do that if it limits your total mileage.

Southern Man

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We're on a road to nowhere. Come on along.

Southern Man

757 posts since
Apr 19, 2006

3. Apr 28, 2007 7:26 PM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

It is probably not a bad idea to anticipate somewhat the structure of your weekly mileage as you base build, either. By that I mean that during marathon training I would run a long run on Saturdays and a medium long run (11-15) on Tuesdays and Thursdays. If that is your plan it wouldn't hurt to start extending those runs a little. Again, pace is not important. I did not extend my long run terribly long in base training, not going past 15-16.

Southern Man

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We're on a road to nowhere. Come on along.

liss037

7 posts since
May 23, 2005

4. Apr 30, 2007 8:46 AM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

This is very helpful, thank you <making notes>. I have read through the Lydiard and Maffetone threads but have found it difficult to figure out which bits of information apply to me with my new super-slow pace. I've seen a fair number of opinions which suggest that one should limit the time one spends running to 10-12hrs a week, and unless my aerobic pace improves I will be approaching that ceiling fairly soon. I do not know whether or not I should be worried about that, or whether the benefit of continuing to build slow miles will counterbalance it.

Tentative plan is, then, to start with my current schedule:

M rest
T 5
W 9
T 5
F 5 (tempo?)
S 5
S 13

and add a total of 3mi per fortnight from there, 1/2 a mile per run. With 1 week in every 4 as a cutback, that would get me to c. 57mpw before starting an 18-week program.

I'm interested in the idea of a Pfitzinger-style program with lots of miles, plus longer LT-type runs, rather than lots of intervals. I had thought of taking the 55mpw program and tweaking it to add some mileage but cut the speed sessions down to 1 per week. My thought was that greater endurance was more likely to bring my pace down than tweaking the finer points of running form.

I have no idea, however, if I'm completely off base with this, or biting off far more than I can chew - so would greatly welcome feedback.

jjwaverly42

337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

5. Apr 30, 2007 8:56 AM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

Build your aerobic base and system, and your mileage.
Basically run all your miles in your aerobic ranges.
Ways:
You can strap on a HRM and keep under 75% MHR.

Do the MAFF method.

You can follow someone like the popular Tinman at http://www.therunzone.com[/URL" target="_blank"> who recommends that EZ days should be about 2 minutes per mile slower than your current 5k pace. Moderate days sholuld be about 1.5 minutes per mile slower than your current 5k pace.

Pfiitzinger recommends 20% over goal marathon pace, or 73-83% MHR for longish runs, and and a slower pace or 75%MHR for easy days.

Long Slow Tempo Days (Tinman Tempos) should be about 1 minute per mile slower than your current 5k pace.

Building your aerobic base and system will serve you well in the marathon.

Good luck!

--Jimmy

Jog Log[/URL" target="_blank">
zzzzzzz[/URL" target="_blank">

drentfro

38 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

6. Apr 30, 2007 11:42 AM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

Keep us posted on how you do. I am trying exactly the same path for the first time, having come to the conclusion that in training for my previous 4 marathons I ran too few miles, too fast, and as a result hit the wall in the race every time. Like you, when I strapped the hrm on, I found out I needed to slow down from 9:15/mile by about two minutes. My goal race is Austin in February. I am now at 30mpw, hope to get to 60 by mid-August, and stay there for a couple of months before beginning a training program in October.

I have planned on one medium long run mid week, but find Southern Man's suggestion of two medium long runs appealing -- makes scheduling a bit easier.

Long Run Nick

265 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

7. Apr 30, 2007 11:59 AM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

Liss--you mention your HR numbers. You didn't mention your max heart rate. Hopefully you aren't using the 220- age or other "target zone" concepts. Go out--get warmed up for several miles--run a few decent hill repeats. When you see white spots and gag when you finish--ck your HR--that should be pretty close to your max. Best to you. Let us know. Nick

MM Hippo

202 posts since
Apr 28, 2006

8. Apr 30, 2007 3:12 PM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

One other thing you could do before training - get really comfortable at your new, slower pace.

Some runners find that slowing down feels odd. I've heard "I can't run that slowly." Even if you can, there may be things about your gait at the slower pace where efficiency and smoothness could be improved.

Ideally, the slow pace is MUCH less stressful on you and will help you avoid injury. That's the big reason for going slower - 90% of the aerobic benefits with 20% of the wear and tear costs. Being smoother and more comfortable will help take the "work" out of the long runs.OTOH, an awkward slower pace may not contain all the benefits.

Also, if you really plan to lose any weight between now and marathon day, do it now before the hard training. Restricting calories at the peak of marathon training is a) hard, and b) leaves you feeling like you were run over by a truck.

------------------
-Hippo-

We went to face our demons, but all we found were angels.
me[/URL" target="_blank">

Bugs34

616 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

9. May 1, 2007 8:20 PM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Southern Man:
You have two priorities, in order.

1) Make sure you are healthy. If you are not healthy entering your training I am not sure I like your chances of getting through it in one piece.

2) Run as many miles as possible. The marathon preparation is about total mileage. It is fine if you want to do something tempoish once a week or to do some strides or pickups once a week, but don't do that if it limits your total mileage.

Southern Man
<HR>

SM, I've heard you say #2 before. Do you mean during training or before training? I'm currently nursing an injury, partially to overuse, and I'm wondering if I shouldn't have cut back mileage seriously before starting marthon training to give my body some rest.

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Bugs[/URL" target="_blank">

Fast Like the Wind

33 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

10. May 2, 2007 5:50 AM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

I'm a firm believer in more miles ... before, during, and after marathon training (within reason of course). I've found over the past couple of years as I've ramped my miles up from low 30mpw to 50mpw and then to 60mpw this year that my recovery time from a long run or hard workout is minimal at best. I attribute it somewhat to the mileage during the marathon build-up, but more importantly to the base that I built at relatively slow paces / low heart rates PRIOR to the marathon training.

OK, so what's the point. My advice would be that if you choose to go for the Nov date, spend the extra 12 wks first getting healthly and then working on a solid base as So. Man suggested (weekend long + mid-week med-long + active recovery runs). If you decide to go with a Pfitz 55/18 plan, ideally you would want to be somewhere around 40mpw of relatively easy running prior to starting the plan. Also, with this plan, you are running about 5 days/wk, so add a short 3-4mi recovery run on one of the off days if you want to get some additional mileage.

Good luck

Southern Man

757 posts since
Apr 19, 2006

11. May 2, 2007 4:34 PM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bugs34:

SM, I've heard you say #2 before. Do you mean during training or before training? I'm currently nursing an injury, partially to overuse, and I'm wondering if I shouldn't have cut back mileage seriously before starting marthon training to give my body some rest.

<HR>

Well, you note I say that you should be healthy first, before progressing on to #2, so by all means cut back some to let your injury heal. In fact I tend to be pretty conservative with injury--better to reduce mileage for a little while than to have to stop completely.

On the second part, I guess I don't make a rigid distinction about "before training" or "during training". I guess you mean following a 18 week, for example, training schedule. Mostly I think of all of it as training. It all benefits you--the more you can run the better, year round.

I think a lot of runners think like you about "during training" but I think it is a mistake. Running training is cumulative. People always list what they ran in the 18 weeks prior to their marathon or their six highest week, or their peek week in marathon training. I'd like somebody, somewhere to compile what people did in the 5 years prior to their marathon. I'd rather see you run 55-60 miles year round than run 35-40 in the "offseason" and then try to ramp up to 70 in peak training for a marathon. It's okay to periodize and ramp up for key races but consistency is key. I periodize by intensity more than by mileage and running slower lets me build or maintain mileage even in the offseason without injury (and I can race pretty well just off of base, too).

Southern Man

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We're on a road to nowhere. Come on along.

brandyk051

121 posts since
Oct 31, 2006

12. May 2, 2007 4:43 PM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

Liss I am using my "before" training time to continue to build up my base miles, increase my long runs and work on speed work. I am probably going to be using Pfitzingers up to 70 - 24 week plan. My marathon is in January. Right now I am running 45-55 miles per week with a long run 13-15.

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liss037

7 posts since
May 23, 2005

13. Dec 22, 2007 9:23 AM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

I just wanted to say a very belated thank you to those who replied to this thread. It was all good advice, but it was particularly great to have the reassurance that going for a larger base was the right decision despite my slow pace.

Thanks again!

mrinertia

1,356 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

14. Jun 25, 2007 1:25 PM

in response to: liss037

Re: How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
Liss--you mention your HR numbers. You didn't mention your max heart rate. Hopefully you aren't using the 220- age or other "target zone" concepts. Go out--get warmed up for several miles--run a few decent hill repeats. When you see white spots and gag when you finish--ck your HR--that should be pretty close to your max. Best to you. Let us know. Nick<HR>

When you say "a few decent hill repeats" are you talking about charging up near full throttle?

Just got a HRM and so far have only used it to monitor my HR; I haven't done any HR targeted training, but may be doing so shortly. When I run a hill workout, my HR gets to 80-82% of my 220-age HR. In order to guage my max HR with your method (The idea of gagging and seeing white spots I find oddly appealing) should I run the hills harder, or do a bunch more of them?

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You run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking, racing around to come up behind you again.

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Apr 28, 2007 8:50 AM

How can I best use my time before starting a marathon training program? (long, sorry)

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