How to run not slow

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RunnersHigh

259 posts since
Nov 24, 2006

30. Jun 3, 2007 10:49 AM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by maryt:
Sure, increasing mileage will help, running hills will help, but seriously, the best way to get faster fast - is to run faster.

<HR>

Most have said to run more miles. I am from the other camp. I believe that you already run enough miles for your desired times. Speed work sessions once a week will make a huge difference but you need to gradually introduce them to your training. My average miles a week are between 25 and 30 when not training for a marathon. I average a 7 minute mile on my easy days and 6:25 on a tempo runs of 6 or more. Patience, speedwork, talent will get you there. More miles work for those who don't put in the speedwork, tempo, higher quality/greater effort runs. Don't add junk miles to run faster. Like Mary said, you'll see the greatest improvement and benefits from speedwork.

Tchuck

554 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

31. Dec 22, 2007 10:47 AM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

Increasing miles and intensity at same time is a recipe for trouble. Just be aware. You have short term goals. The faster work now will sharpen you up and make you faster in 3 months, but for the long term it will do nothing to get you to that 6:30 pace. 25 miles per week is not a lot of base to be hammering a lot of intervals. I know because this is my miles per week. I have gotten faster doing more tempo work vs. speed work. The speed work took away my aerobic sharpness and ability to hold pace. When I cut back on the hard stuff all my times started improving.

I think upping your miles gradually while adding 4 X 200M fast but not all out (with full 200-300M recovery) at end of your two longer runs per week which should include some quality tempo work or critical velocity work will help just as much or more as doing the 8 - 12 X 400M fast stuff and be a lot easier on your body.

You (everyone) will respond very quickly to fast stuff and don't need such a high volume. You are already physically strong. Probably too strong and the weight slows you down. If you cut back the weights and dropped some lbs. (muscle or fat) this would make you faster as you have less weight to drag around.You have plenty of fast twitch development which will actually deter your aerobic progress. You need more slow twitch endurance fibers. Note: do your lifting after your running if running or that 2 mile time is your main goal.

Also, remember, a 2 mile run is still primarily an aerobic event, not anaerobic!!!!! The aerobic foundation (the cake) is where you get the biggest benefits and improvements, while the speed work (is the icing), not the other way around. Work on the foundation with more miles (not fast miles) and throw in some faster stuff but not so much on your low miles that it tears you up and prevents you from doing the miles you need to improve the most.

http://www.peakrunningperformance.com/docs/Critical_Velocity.htm[/URL" target="_blank">

------------------
Todd[/URL" target="_blank">

http://This message has been edited by Tchuck (edited Jun-03-2007).

Abadabajev

231 posts since
Oct 4, 1999

32. Jun 3, 2007 1:12 PM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by RunnersHigh43:
More miles work for those who don't put in the speedwork, tempo, higher quality/greater effort runs. Don't add junk miles to run faster. Like Mary said, you'll see the greatest improvement and benefits from speedwork.
<HR>

People with limited mileage who jump on speedwork, tempo,higher quality/greater effort run is because they are not willing to put in the work and commitment. Looking for that elusive short cut.

oar096

59 posts since
Jul 1, 2006

33. Jun 3, 2007 2:47 PM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by notjontran:

I'm not sure why exactly I run so slow. <HR>

How tall and heavy are you?
Not everyone is built for running.

I, for example, will never amount to anything as a runner
despite the fact that my aerobic system is reasonably well trained.
My weight is the problem.

maryt091

806 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

34. Jun 3, 2007 4:43 PM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by notjontran:
I'm going to be upping my weekly mileage by about 10% each week with a low mileage week for recovery every fourth week. I'll most likely increase it by 10% for the first couple weeks then increase it by 5% every week, then by 5% every other week to avoid shin splints or something of the sort.

I do strength training every other day, taking 2 days off in a row about once a week. I'm finding it difficult to do heavy legwork as doing max weight and max rep squats tire my legs out so bad I can barely run the next day, so I'll have to think of something. When I strength train and run on the same day I start off by strength training lifting weights at home then immediately going on my daily run. Bodybuilders that I've talked to recommend cardio after lifting sessions to burn fat and preserve muscle, but since my emphasis here is running ability I'm not sure what would be best. Any ideas?<HR>

Because your time is so short to pass the Army physical fitness test for running in just 3 months, I would advise cutting back on the squats. They aren't helping you get faster. Also if you do strength and cardio the same day close together, whichever you do first will take it out of the second workout. So, the runners will always say run first, and the body builders will aways say lift first.

It's difficult to both increase mileage and speedwork at the same time, so while I agree with everyone who says increasing your mileage will help long term, for the short term with a 2 mile speed test to pass in just 3 months, I think you are bettter off letting your mileage stay where it is, keeping your long run at 9 miles and your total mileage around 25 and concentrating on getting in a couple of speedwork sessions per week until you get fast enough to pass your test.

milkbaby004

464 posts since
Jul 28, 2003

35. Jun 3, 2007 6:01 PM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

As far as order of your workout, if improving your running is the emphasis, do your running workout before you do any lifting. If you want to be a body builder, do the lifting first then the cardio. You are fresher for whatever training bout you do first, that means you can do higher quality work on the discipline you do first.

While it would be nice to run more, since you are trying to pass a physical test in 3 months, speedwork usually gets you the bigger bang for the buck quicker. You probably won't be as fast as you would be if you spent time to build up your mileage base, but that is not the point.

Lannock

79 posts since
May 16, 2007

36. Jun 4, 2007 8:40 AM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

"Hey man, if you wanna run faster, just run more miles at a slow pace, that should speed you right up!" Is it just me or does that sound "illogical" if there is such a word? I'm a re-beginning runner myself as I only started running in Jan this year after a 12 year layoff. To me the logical thing to do would be, "if you want to run faster, run faster".

Another problem I have with all this advice you're getting is that almost everyone is trying to get you into races even though you mention that is NOT your objective. Although I must admit running competitively makes me run faster. If I ran 8k now I would struggle to do it under 45 mins on my own, but in a race I would do it in 41 mins.

I started running in Jan '93 and in Dec that year I was running 55 to 65 kms per week (10k x 4/5 + 15k long run). My 10k runs I did at 5 mpk (8 mpm). I didn't run a single race in that year and I did zero "speed training". I ran at a "comfortable enjoyable" pace and that pace kept increasing. So, if you just want to increase your speed for your current 25 mpw just increase your speed for each run a little bit, i.e. if you do 5 miles in 50 mins try doing it in 48 mins this week, 46 next week, or something like that.

Then we have to look at your other "problem", if I read your other posts correctly it looks like you do lots of weight training. I think that's where your 'problem' lies. If you have lots of muscle especially on the legs then your body is designed for sprinting not long distance. You have an overload of 'fast twitch' muscles and not enough 'slow twitch' to run 'fast' over distance (2 miles). If you want to run 2 miles in 13 mins you might have to cut back on the weight training.

Nobby063

630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

37. Jun 4, 2007 9:16 AM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lannock:
To me the logical thing to do would be, "if you want to run faster, run faster".

.............

I didn't run a single race in that year and I did zero "speed training". I ran at a "comfortable enjoyable" pace and that pace kept increasing. <HR>

This sounds "illogical" to me. Your pace "kept increasing" by doing "zero speed training" and "just ran comfortable enjoyable pace" and you are saying "it's illogical to get faster by running slow"?

Lannock

79 posts since
May 16, 2007

38. Jun 4, 2007 2:20 PM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nobby:

This sounds "illogical" to me. Your pace "kept increasing" by doing "zero speed training" and "just ran comfortable enjoyable pace" and you are saying "it's illogical to get faster by running slow"?<HR>

I didn't say I was running slow, did I? Like I said I had no one to tell me what to do, I didn't even read running magazines. To me running 10k in 50 mins was comfortable and enjoyable. I increased my pace as I went along. I had a route (about 4 to 4.5k) which I kept running faster and faster and I improved my time from about 25 mins to 17 mins. No "speed training", but certainly not "slow".

Guest

39. Jun 4, 2007 5:44 PM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lannock:
I didn't say I was running slow, did I? Like I said I had no one to tell me what to do, I didn't even read running magazines. To me running 10k in 50 mins was comfortable and enjoyable. I increased my pace as I went along. I had a route (about 4 to 4.5k) which I kept running faster and faster and I improved my time from about 25 mins to 17 mins. No "speed training", but certainly not "slow".<HR>

It might have worked for you, but IMHO, this is horrible advice to give someone.

To keep trying to run training runs faster and faster, for the average runner will sooner or later, lead to an injury or burnout.

It is vastly easier to increase speed by building a mileage and then sharpening. Even a modest increase in mileage should bring him faster times.

Abadabajev

231 posts since
Oct 4, 1999

40. Jun 4, 2007 6:54 PM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lannock:
To me the logical thing to do would be, "if you want to run faster, run faster".
.............

I didn't run a single race in that year and I did zero "speed training". I ran at a "comfortable enjoyable" pace and that pace kept increasing.
<HR>

Oh boy, I need a drink to analyze this.

angrek

127 posts since
Aug 14, 2007

41. Dec 22, 2007 10:47 AM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by muzicgrl:
You need to drastically increase you MPW <HR>

quote:<HR>Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Consider bumping your mileage somewhere in the 50-70 range<HR>

I disagree. I run faster than what he's aiming for off of about 20 miles per week. I realize that not everyone is going to do that, and that I have a bit more muscle and power than most runners, but 50-70 for 6:30-7:00 per mile? Seems a little overkill. I think there a lot more questions that need to be answered like how long has he been running 20 miles per week (he said he 'can' run that many miles per week, not he does every week..), how's his body makeup? height? weight?, what's his turnover and gait like? How is his nutrition and is that affecting his running? There are a lot of things you could look at. I'm not saying that he shouldn't increase his miles here, but I think a 'drastic' increase, and especially to 50-70 miles is a bit overboard.

http://This message has been edited by angrek (edited Jun-05-2007).

Lannock

79 posts since
May 16, 2007

42. Jun 5, 2007 1:07 AM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Redriderun:
It might have worked for you, but IMHO, this is horrible advice to give someone.

To keep trying to run training runs faster and faster, for the average runner will sooner or later, lead to an injury or burnout.

It is vastly easier to increase speed by building a mileage and then sharpening. Even a modest increase in mileage should bring him faster times.

<HR>

Like I said, I knew nothing about running, so I did my own thing. I'll be the first to admit that "my way" is not the way to go if you want to run long distances and do marathons.

I think you should check again what the man's goals are. He's not training for a marathon. His goals are:

1) Increasing his pace. He thinks he's running too slow. Therefore a slight increase in pace, up to a point, will make him run faster.

2) Improving his 2-mile time. Increasing his distance is not gonna improve his 2-mile time (short term). Improving his distance might improve his 10k or 10 mile time, but that is not his intention. To improve his 2-mile time (short term) he must do speed-training.

Lannock

79 posts since
May 16, 2007

43. Jun 5, 2007 2:32 AM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Abadabajev:
Oh boy, I need a drink to analyze this.

<HR>

It couldn't be simpler. If you've been running 25 miles a week for the last 10 weeks at 10 mpm, then next week you run your 25 miles at 10m15s pm, i.e. if you want to run faster, you run faster.

My pace kept increasing because I pushed myself to run faster on every run. Needless to say, I wouldn't advise anyone to this. I'm NOT advising the OP to do this. Like I said, I was totally uneducated in running back then. I know better now.

angrek

127 posts since
Aug 14, 2007

44. Dec 22, 2007 10:47 AM

in response to: notjontran

Re: How to run not slow

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lannock:
It couldn't be simpler. If you've been running 25 miles a week for the last 10 weeks at 10 mpm, then next week you run your 25 miles at 10m15s pm, i.e. if you want to run faster, you run faster.

My pace kept increasing because I pushed myself to run faster on every run. Needless to say, I wouldn't advise anyone to this. I'm NOT advising the OP to do this. Like I said, I was totally uneducated in running back then. I know better now.<HR>

I wouldn't advise them to do that either. That's 15s per mile slower!

I'm sure you meant 9:45/mile but I couldn't help myself.

http://This message has been edited by angrek (edited Jun-05-2007).

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