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76 Replies Last post: Jun 12, 2007 9:34 PM by JimR022   Go to original post 1 2 3 4 5 6 Previous Next
Click to view MichiganFlyer's profile Legend 348 posts since
Dec 9, 2005
45. Jun 5, 2007 9:47 AM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
quote:<HR>Originally posted by notjontran:

I'm only managing a 10 minute per mile pace which is absolutely atrocious for someone able with an established distance base. If I can just run faster, I can spend less time running and get the same benefit. My goal is to pull off an extremely realistic pace of 6:30-7:00 minutes per mile, .
<HR>



I run 10:00 pace in training for about 90% of my runs and I run about 6:40 pace in races.

What does that mean? Either you should be able to run 6:40 pace in races right now....OR more likely you are running your training miles WAY TOO FAST.

You need to run slower to get faster. The 10:00 pace seems to be sapping your strength and energy. SLOW DOWN!
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
46. Dec 22, 2007 10:47 AM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
Lannock:

I do see your point. I remember doing it myself. I had this 2k loop and I used to blast away before dinner just about everyday for about a month, trying to run faster than the day before. But I was 13 then and hope I've leanrt a little since then. I believe Walter George used to emply that type of training also (any running historian out there?); then the Finns brought more structure and purpose to training. That was 1920s.

All due respect, running 15 or 25 miles per week is not that much at all and running 8-minute pace is not that fast at all. If you're a fit and healthy young man, you COULD get it down to 7-minute-mile speed or faster simply by running further, say, suggested 40~60 range. And going SLOWER actually enables you to go the distance. It is the ability to take in, transport and utilize oxygen that enables you to go further AND faster and you can develop this ability by running a lot. And by going slow enough in the initial stage will enable you to cover the ground; going fast, or trying to go faster than yesterday, will (or I should probably say "might") actually inhibit that opportunity.

To your point, the original poster wants to improve his 2-mile time by 3-minute-per-mile faster in mere 3 months which itself is quite "unrealistic" if you ask me, or a typical "quick fix" mentality. He may never give a **** about running "well" after that so who cares about "proper structure of training"... But seriously, as you yourself stated, it is not something that should be "suggested" (to try to run faster than yesterday for 3 months). My original suggestion actually has the same principles as what you suggest; try to run a 2-mile time trial faster than previously; but not everyday. You say you did this approach when you didn't know much about running at all and you were "uneducated"; but now you "know better know". Yet, you are suggesting the approach you took when you were "uneducated" (I don't know what you konw now because you don't seem to be sharing it).

Actually, more fundamentally, if the guy is struggling to run faster than 10-minute pace; to tell him to run faster doesn't seem like a good advice anyways.

By the way, I don't mean to be knit-picking but if you're struggling to run 8k under 45 minutes in training and "race" 8k in 41 minutes; yet running 10k in 50 minutes is comfortable and enjoyable, that doesn't really add up. And, I'm sorry but, for a fit and healthy young man (I don't know how old you are or how fit you are); running 8-minute pace is not that fast. Running a 10k in 50 minutes in training...I would classify that as a "nice slow run" and by doing that, you'll get faster.


quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lannock:
If I ran 8k now I would struggle to do it under 45 mins on my own, but in a race I would do it in 41 mins.
......

To me running 10k in 50 mins was comfortable and enjoyable.

<HR>




http://This message has been edited by Nobby (edited Jun-05-2007).
Click to view MichiganFlyer's profile Legend 348 posts since
Dec 9, 2005
48. Jun 5, 2007 11:24 AM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
By running hard on interval training you aren't going to improve your 100 meter race time by more than a second. Likewise if you lower your 400 meter time by more than 10 seconds I would be shocked. Fast running doesn't improve speed very much at all. It just strengthens your heart by shocking it into from the hard work. You need ample recovery time from this though.

You need endurance to run 3 miles Fast running helps endurance a little bit....but you tire out so quickly from speedwork that it doesn't help much. You need lots of slower miles.

60 miles in a week in your 1st year of running is probably going to be too much. I would request you attempt 30-35 miles per week for 3 months or so before moving up to 40-45 if you still feel okay.
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
49. Jun 5, 2007 12:51 PM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
quote:<HR>Originally posted by notjontran:
Not at all!

I said 3 months because whenever I endeavor to achieve something I always set high goals for myself. Sure, the goals I set might be impossible but they push me to do whatever is necessary to accomplish them. As such I am interested in the structure of training such as proper running form, breathing correctly, nutrition, and the like.

<HR>


First of all, I'm glad you didn't take my comment defensively!

You're right; there are quite a few seasoned runners/coaches on this board and their advice is spot-on. For a proper training structure or program or whatever you want to call it, you should spend the first 3 months or so to build up your condition by doing lots of easy running. However, I guess I'm a bit different. You have a clear goal to run 2 miles in 14 minutes or faster and I don't see any reason why you throw that away now (whether it's realistic or unrealistic, you'd let us know in 3 months time). I'll stand what I've written earlier; try to go further or longer (up to 2-hours) while doing at least one day of time trial 2 miles and some easy repeats on alternating weeks. If anything, you should consider inclucing a hill session once a week on the top of that. No bounding or springing or fast/hard hill repeats or anything like that. Just jog down to a long steepish hill (hopefully 300m or more) and run up STRONG, not hecessarily hard or fast, but strongly with a good posture, good knee lift, good arm swing... Just jog down and repeat. Do this for 20~30 minutes or so; then jog back for cool-down. Thiswould strengthen your legs, particularly your quads and ankles, as well as help improve your technique and enable you to run faster without trying to run faster.

I also would like to chip in a bit about this "slow" running deal. I was being a bit sarcastic when I wrote about Walter George and the Finns but it is true; the Finns started this "structured training" in the 1920s and one of the first things they did, during the winter, was to walk--and they walked a LOT--for a couple of months. And they were running 30 minutes for 10k. Interestingly, one of the first things Olympic champion, Naoko Takahashi, would do when she starts out her marathon training cycle, is to go for a long hike up and down the foothills of Boulder. Yes, WALKING! Eriko Asai, a sub 2:30 marathon runner in the 80s, would go for an extreme of LSD up to 4, 5, 6 hours at 12-minute pace. I posted a training pattern of Okutani, a 2:08 marathon runner from Japan who would be representing Japan at Osaka (I think he finished 6th or 7th at Helsinki as well???). He would spend about 3 months doing almost nothing but 8-minute pace running (of course, he would do up to 60km a day, 1200km a month); then a month of speed training. He found his winning combination; he said by doing this cycle, he set his PR in 10000 (28 something) in 2003. So it took him 4 months for him to get it down from 8-minute pace down to sub-5 pace!

If you want to buy into those rubbish about low mileage, fast pace training; and if you want to spread that all over the internet; go ahead and do it. But it's not going to help too many people too much. That's not going to help the sport very much either.
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
50. Jun 5, 2007 1:20 PM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nobby:
So it took him 4 months for him to get it down from 8-minute pace down to sub-5 pace! <HR>


Of course, I was joking when I said this. It was merely his preparation (4 months); not from the scratch. ;o)
Click to view brown82799's profile Legend 308 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
51. Jun 5, 2007 1:40 PM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Abadabajev:
Oh boy, I need a drink to analyze this.

<HR>


I'm still laughing....too funny....
Click to view brown82799's profile Legend 308 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
52. Jun 5, 2007 1:45 PM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
quote:<HR>Originally posted by muzicgrl:
while I understand your desire to run faster (I think everyone has it). I frankly find this comment offensive and ignorant. Lots of runners who run just as much, if not more mileage than you run this pace or slower. I run 30-40 miles a week and I hit 10 minute miles only on a good day on a flat route.

To answer your real question...you have to work very, very hard to increase speed. You need to drastically increase you MPW (but not so quickly that you get injured) and incorporate speedwork. Your goal is not easy to attain, even for very experienced runners. Some runners will never acheive your goal no matter how hard they work (genetics does play a role here). Realistically you are not going to lose three minutes/mile off your time in three months (unless you just want to be able to run 1 mile in 7 minutes...that MIGHT be possible). If it was that easy to gain speed we would all be running toward the front of the pack.

<HR>


Before i forget, i find being offended by this post to be offensive.....
Click to view binny's profile Rookie 2 posts since
Jun 6, 2007
53. Jun 6, 2007 2:15 AM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
i usually train on mountains good roads, not hiking and i can run/jog for about 50 minutes.. fouf very tiring but so nice.. for the coming back down takes less than 30 minutes.. i have to ask about the distance though..
Click to view superburtm's profile Pro 140 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
54. Jun 6, 2007 5:32 AM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
Bannister broke the 4min mile with 30 mins of running a day.
Click to view MichiganFlyer's profile Legend 348 posts since
Dec 9, 2005
55. Jun 6, 2007 7:21 AM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
quote:<HR>Originally posted by superburtm:
Bannister broke the 4min mile with 30 mins of running a day. <HR>


Thats right and he quit running a few months after that. He was totally burned out. Bannister did 100% speedwork all the time and it helped him shave off a few seconds in a mile run. He went from like 4:04 to 3:59.
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
56. Jun 6, 2007 9:19 AM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
quote:<HR>Originally posted by superburtm:
Bannister broke the 4min mile with 30 mins of running a day. <HR>


This is the funniest post I've read on this thread!

On the second thought, if you were serious, this is the stupidest (or should I say, "most stupid"?) post on this thread.
Click to view dpar's profile Pro 85 posts since
Dec 11, 2005
58. Jun 6, 2007 2:03 PM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
quote:<HR>Originally posted by notjontran:
I've set up a plan to increase my mileage, but is it safe to go ahead with that plan? Yes, I can run 25 mpw, but it was only a month ago that I got back to going 25 mpw after about a year hiatus from running. I should have mentioned that to begin with.

Also the route that I've been running is 100% concrete and asphalt, I think that might become a serious problem if I try to run 60 mpw on just that kind of surface.
<HR>


I am a current Army Officer and part time, partly accomplished, partly experienced runner.

Here's my advice. If you want to pass the APFT then you need to subordinate your lifting and all other workouts to passing the APFT. One of your posts said you couldn't slack off on lifting because you would lose power or something. Listen up, the Army does not care if you can bench a Buick or squat an SUV. The Army demands that you run the APFT in under about 16 minutes(depending on age group.) Until you can meet the minimum Army standards you are a failure. A Failure! Failures do not go far in our Army. It does not matter how fit you are or what you can lift. Meet the minimum standard or you're a failure.

WIth that logic, I'd suggest you subordinate every aspect of your fitness to meeting the minimum Army standard. This does not mean you cannot lift. This means that any activity that limits your ability to improve your run, situps, and pushups is off limits. If you cannot do your leg workout and then go out and improve your run, then you cannot lift. If you're not willing to do that, then find another line of work. If you were a Soldier under my command and had your current problem, I'd make the gym off limits to you, forbid you from lifting, and have your leader run you everyday in accordance with a sensible but tough plan until you met Army standards. I'd do this because my first obligation is to ensure that you can meet the minimum Army standard.

I disagree with the posts telling you to run over 50 miles a week. The vast majority of Soldiers run less than 25mpw. Most of your peers will run 2 miles under 15mins, amny will be under 13:30. If you are aspiring to be an officer you need to shoot for under about 14:30 for a respectable time, under 14 is optimal.

As a few others have said. I think you should focus on your run and do some shorter distance 400-800 intervals. Here's another method. Determine what a realistic intermediate goal is. Let's say the minimum passing score in round numbers, maybe a 16:00 2 mile. That's 2:00 per 1/4 mile. Go to the track and run that pace for one lap. Recover for 30-45 seconds and repeat. Continue until you run 8-10 laps at a 2:00 per lap pace. This should be a fairly easy workout as far as speedwork goes but it will train you to run at that pace.

Keep your speedwork to one day a week and stop taxing your legs in teh gym.

good luck



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Click to view Girl In Motion's profile Legend 253 posts since
Feb 4, 2007
59. Jun 6, 2007 2:22 PM in response to: notjontran
Re: How to run not slow
And in case you didn't get the nuance of that last post...you're a failure, FAILURE I tell you!!