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Click to view TomThumbs's profile Amateur 32 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

Dec 22, 2007 10:56 AM

Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?

This is an adaptation of a press release about a journal article, so who knows how well it represents the primary source, but it's an interesting read nonetheless:

"In an article published in The Journal of Physiology, Frank de Paoli and colleagues, working at the University of Aarhus in Denmark, add to the growing literature leading to a more complete understanding of the physiological role of lactic acid production in muscle.

In the late 19th century, fermentation chemists realized that juice left to ferment without adequate oxygen resulted in acid products. Then, in the early 20th century, when physiologists stimulated isolated frog muscles to contract until exhaustion, they found that the tissues had accumulated high amounts of lactic acid. Since then, the idea that lactic acid accumulation causes muscle fatigue has persisted.

But did early scientists fail to address the various issues adequately and interpret the results appropriately? Did they fail to ask the essential question? "Why does nature make lactic acid?", and did they in effect put one and one together and make them a minus?

De Paoli and colleagues looked at the effects of lactic acid and adrenaline on the processes that signal contractions in skeletal muscles. Using rat muscles, the study examined the combined effect of potassium ions, lactic acid and adrenaline on the electrical signalling system that serves to forward the activating signals from the brain to the muscle fibres where contraction takes place.

They showed that in combination, lactic acid and adrenalin serve to help working muscles ward off the effects of potassium ions which leak from the inside to the outside of working muscle cells and negatively effect the signaling process by which muscles contract. In this, the latest of a series of reports from the Aarhus group, in combination with reports from other scientists in Scandinavia, the UK, US and Canada, long-standing ideas about the role of lactic acid in muscle are being overturned.

So, why do muscles contract? Usually, muscles contract because the central and peripheral nervous system signals them to do so.

Why do the muscles make lactic acid? Lactic acid is the result of the glycolytic energy production system. It is an energy source to be used in muscle cells of origin, or adjacent fibres (cells), or fibres in the heart and cells in the brain. Lactic acid is also the material that the liver prefers to make glucose (sugar) for the blood when exercise is prolonged. Lactic acid production in muscle is stimulated in part by circulating adrenalin. Now, from de Paoli and colleagues we learn that adrenalin and lactic acid also help protect against the electrolyte imbalance across muscle membranes brought on by the loss of potassium.

Why does potassium have such a negative effect? In the study, when potassium ions outside the muscle fibres were increased to levels seen during intense exercise, the ability of the signalling system to forward electrical signals was profoundly reduced and the muscle became paralysed. If, however, lactic acid and adrenaline were added in combination, the function of the signalling system was largely recovered and the contractile response of the muscles restored. It was further shown that the positive effect of lactic acid was specifically related to an acidification of the interior of the muscle cells, which is one of the hallmarks of intense exercise.

The muscle lactic acid story, however, is still incomplete. It may even be found that lactate production is adaptive because its presence signals the activation of genes responsible for controlling muscle function. So, it seems that there is wisdom in the way that the body functions, a retrospective realisation that seems obvious, and which for lactic acid is supported by a century of strides even after a few false steps."

On edit: It's from sciencedaily.com

http://This message has been edited by TomThumbs (edited Jun-01-2007).
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
1. Jun 1, 2007 11:25 PM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
In aerobic respiration, oxygen is the end electron acceptor in the mitochondria that results in a high efficiency productino of ATP (energy). When enough oxygen is not present, another electron acceptor is needed and this is lactic acid, which allows relatively inefficient anaerboic metabolism to continue. Lactic acid can be burned by the mitochondria, but oxygen is necessary. So this occurs later when oxygen levels rise again.

There is a purpose for lactic acid, but it is not some magical unidentified energy source. Full use of fuel still requires oxygen and lactic acid adds nothing to this process.
Click to view brianfie's profile Legend 316 posts since
Apr 6, 2001
2. Jun 2, 2007 12:10 AM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
quote:<HR>Originally posted by AndyHass:
In aerobic respiration, oxygen is the end electron acceptor in the mitochondria that results in a high efficiency productino of ATP (energy). When enough oxygen is not present, another electron acceptor is needed and this is lactic acid, which allows relatively inefficient anaerboic metabolism to continue. Lactic acid can be burned by the mitochondria, but oxygen is necessary. So this occurs later when oxygen levels rise again.

There is a purpose for lactic acid, but it is not some magical unidentified energy source. Full use of fuel still requires oxygen and lactic acid adds nothing to this process.
<HR>


Sure, but there was this notion for a long time that a side effect of the accumulation of Lactic Acid was fatigue. Then I read a lot of theorising that it was the 'acid' part that was the culprit in causeing fatigue, since as these people were saying, muscles do not work well at low PH. Recently I read an article that was saying they had discovered that Lactate actually buffers PH. It was a good read, but I can't find it any more. Anyone remember anything like this?

-b
Click to view Abadabajev's profile Legend 231 posts since
Oct 4, 1999
3. Jun 2, 2007 6:57 AM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
quote:<HR>Originally posted by TomThumbs:
<HR>


Lactic acid is a friend. The body is constantly producing it Whether you're walking your dog or running with Bekele on the track. When you bathe in it long enough, the body will use it for energy. Heck, even the heart prefers lactate when it comes its way. But what the heck do i know.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/04/19_lactate.shtml/[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view Richard99's profile Legend 351 posts since
Oct 25, 2004
5. Jun 2, 2007 8:40 AM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
Friend.

Lactic acid / lactate is beneficial, not the fatigue causing metabolic waste it has long been accused of.

Not only is it a source of energy but it now appears that lactic acid helps delay fatigue.

------------------
Richard
World's Fastest Slow Guy
www.powerrunning.com
Click to view kuan's profile Amateur 34 posts since
Apr 3, 2007
6. Jun 2, 2007 9:28 AM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
I have plenty of lactic acid. How come I'm not faster?
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
7. Jun 2, 2007 11:30 PM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
Increases in lactate are correlated with fatigue....not the cause. These are two different things.

If lactate were a "friend", Richard, then increased lactate levels would correlate with faster running. The opposite is true. Peddle your snake oil someplace else. I'd be happy make you talk yourself in circles again but quite frankly I think you enjoy looking like a goon so I'll let your lack of ability to accurately portray data speak for itself. It boggles my mind that you have nothing better to do with yourself.
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
8. Jun 2, 2007 11:38 PM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Abadabajev:
Lactic acid is a friend. The body is constantly producing it Whether you're walking your dog or running with Bekele on the track. When you bathe in it long enough, the body will use it for energy. Heck, even the heart prefers lactate when it comes its way. But what the heck do i know.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/04/19_lactate.shtml/[/URL" target="_blank">
<HR>


The problem is that you do not know how to interpret what you are reading in this link. What you are looking at is immunofluorescent colocalization. All this shows is that the lactate shuttle is located on the mitochondria. What you are forgetting is that anything metabolized in the mitochondria must be done so oxidatively, meaning through aerobic metabolism. While low levels of lactate are normally produced, if you are flooding your cells with lactate this is only because the energy demands have exceeded the rate at which pyruvate can be oxidatively metabolized and it is instead converted to lactate, a fast but horribly inefficient process.

Because our bodies are wonders of recycling, this lactate is later recycled by being burned in the mitochondria once your mitochondria catch up to the energy demand (switch back to predominantly aerobic metabolism).

Simply showing that the lactate transporter exists on the mitochondria does not show what you say it does. This is just another classic example of a scientific outcome being completely misinterpreted when it hits the media.
Click to view GreenDreams's profile Expert 46 posts since
May 25, 2007
9. Jun 3, 2007 4:59 AM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
Given the results of this study, lactic acid would seem to be something of a double edged sword. It may help ward off muscle fatigue, but because excess lactic acid can and will cause metabolic acidosis, it diminishes your ability to get glucose into cells in the first place. That in itself will decrease that amount of ATP your muscles can take up and use, whether they were going to metabolise that glucose aerobically or anaerobically.

I don't think the issue is as simple as "friend or foe." Like most substances in the body, it's effects are probably a function of how much is present.
Click to view kuan's profile Amateur 34 posts since
Apr 3, 2007
10. Dec 22, 2007 10:56 AM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
quote:<HR>Originally posted by AndyHass:
What you are forgetting is that anything metabolized in the mitochondria must be done so oxidatively, meaning through aerobic metabolism.
.
.
.
Because our bodies are wonders of recycling, this lactate is later recycled by being burned in the mitochondria once your mitochondria catch up to the energy demand (switch back to predominantly aerobic metabolism).
<HR>


Andy how aerobic are we talking about in terms of blood lactate concentration, ie., at what point do lactate levels start seeing rapid decrease?

http://This message has been edited by kuan (edited Jun-03-2007).
Click to view brianfie's profile Legend 316 posts since
Apr 6, 2001
11. Jun 3, 2007 8:02 AM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
Quote:

"Finally, we note that a rise in blood lactate (the "lactate threshold") can indeed be used as an indicator of exhaustion. However, although lactate may well increase when muscle performance declines, lactate is not the cause of the decline. Lactate rises in the blood when the muscle cells are using ATP faster than they resynthesize it aerobically in the mitochondria. But it is the other changes occurring in the muscle, not the lactic acid accumulation, which cause the fatigue. Acidity associated with lactic acid accumulation actually helps delay the onset of muscle fatigue that would otherwise ensue from the other effects of vigorous activity."

Journal of Applied Phisiology[/URL" target="_blank">

There are other opinions. The link is to a discussion.

-b
Hoe
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
12. Dec 22, 2007 10:56 AM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
quote:<HR>Originally posted by kuan:
Andy how aerobic are we talking about in terms of blood lactate concentration, ie., at what point do lactate levels start seeing rapid decrease?

http://This message has been edited by kuan (edited Jun-03-2007).
<HR>


Can you rephrase, I am unsure what you are asking...

I am not intimately familiar with the mmol levels of lactate associated with various % of aerobic output. Renato Canova used to talk about this on his excellent letsrun.com posts. I've never used lactate testing in my own training or coaching so I don't know the exact numbers.

Lactate may very well have a slight effect on muscular endurance but it's pretty much beside the point. Accumulation of lactate is a sign of increased anaerobic respiration, which is akin to torching an oil well instead of pumping the oil to a refinery and burning it efficiently in your car. It's good for short output but a sign of impending doom in a distance runner.
Click to view ericrivas's profile Amateur 25 posts since
Oct 15, 2007
13. Jun 3, 2007 9:04 PM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
TomThumbs,

That?s very cool study, helps prove part of the puzzle and how lactic acid helps prevent fatigue.

We do know that many ions and negatively charged proteins are involved in establishing the membrane potential for muscle contraction. Sodium, potassium, and chloride are three of the most important factors due to their diffusion capabilities. The higher levels of potassium ions surely throw off concentration difference of sodium potassium ion exchange pump and probably changes the action potential needed for contraction.

When an action potential is reached, sodium increases rapidly, and sodium channels open then the membrane potential rapidly changes back to resting negative levels. Sodium then flows in and potassium flows out. When potassium leaves the cell, it takes away a positive charge, and the membrane becomes more negative than usual. This process is called hyperpolarization. During this time, the membrane is in refractory period and is either impossible to stimulate or more difficult than usual.

Seems like lactic acid reverses this process of hyperpolarization or changes the membrane potential back to its original state.
Click to view Richard99's profile Legend 351 posts since
Oct 25, 2004
14. Jun 3, 2007 9:38 PM in response to: TomThumbs
Re: Lactic Acid: Friend or Foe?
"But there is a body of evidence that is not compatible with these assumptions and conclusions. For example, a large range of muscle pH concentrations is measured at exhaustion in humans (Mannion et al 1995). Furthermore, this model is unable to explain the increasing sense of fatigue that develops during races lasting between 10 and 50 minutes. In those races, fatigue is increasing while blood lactate concentrations are falling. In addition, the progressive sense of fatigue that develops in marathon and ultramarathon races cannot be explained on the basis of muscle or blood lactate concentrations, which are typically low during such races." - Lore of Running, 4th edition, page 99



------------------
Richard
World's Fastest Slow Guy
www.powerrunning.com