194 is an extremely high HR to be running at, unless you have a very high max HR. My HR max is about 205, but I would only approach 190 during a high intensity track workout.

No matter what "zone" you are in, you will be burning fat. Its a myth that you burn more fat at lower intensities. You only burn a higher percentage of fat vs carbohydrates. In addition, a more strenuous workout will keep your metabolism higher for more of the day, meaning you're burning energy just to repair the "damage" you did during the high intensity WO. It sounds like you might be overdoing your runs if you are consistently hitting such a high HR (again, unless your max is very high). Overall, your program looks great, and my guess is that your weight is healthy.

The issue with training for weight loss is that it doesn't really work well if your body is already at a percentage body fat that "it likes." So if you're at 15-18% BF, normal for a female, you probably won't make a whole lot of headway, except for maybe short periods of time. How much did you train for the marathon (in hours per week)? A lot of people make the mistake of overcompensating in their diet while doing 30-40mpw training programs. At an avg of 4-6 miles a day, you only need 500-600 additional calories. Probably coming to a total of about 2000 healthy calories a day (depending on your height and build, and resting metabolism though).

Also, in training, you will gain additional muscle mass. While you won't lose weight, there will be noticable changes in your physique. The first thing that happens when I get back into training is that I gain about 2 pounds almost immediately...my guess is that this is additional water weight saturating muscles, helping muscle function and recovery. Shifts of a pound or two are pretty insignificant, and depend on what you eat from day to day. Weight is only a number, and not a very informative one, at that.

"And now while running I'm consistently peaking at 194 obvously not in the optimal zone for weight loss. I'm not exhausted while doing it but it's a good work out."

"According to calculators and the Cardiologist, my max HR is: 192"

Hmmm, me thinks your Cardiologist and your calculators are wrong if you're running at 194 bpm and not being exhausted - or equipment is miscalibrated. duh.

When you had the stress test done, did he just run it until you hit your max hr according to some formula? This isn't uncommon, but it could leave you well short of max hr. My calculated max hr is about 15bpm below my max and is actually closer to my LT.

Not sure what "85-90% of my target" means, esp. for a stress test.

I'm just guessing but just running at conversational effort will probably do wonders.

Losing weight comes from dieting as well. You can in fact get to a condition that runninning isn't burning calories. at least not the way youn are doing it. My usuall normal aerobic pace does very little for calorie burn anymore. When I first started running the weight fell off. I'm probrbly burning as many calories from running as most folks do walking. I suspect the same is happening for you.

If weight loss is your goal I recommend you continue your aerobic class, continue weight training as this speeds matablosim(muscle burns more calories while at rest, so the more you have the more calories you burn, even when doing nothing). Start on a reduced calorie diet(15% below maintance) and replace some of your usuall running with something called HIIT.

Alternating high intensity running with easy running(HIIT) has been proven to burn body fat while maintaining muscle mass far better than running alone. In fact with a poor diet you can actually be burning a greater percentage of muscle and carbs during your runs while your body is storing your fat. If you want to learn more on dieting to target body fat loss(and maintain muscle) let me know. Other wise I'm not going to ramble.


Here's more on HIIT-

HIIT ? High Intensity Interval Training

HIIT is a protocol of alternating high and low intensity exercise, for example sprint/walk intervals.

Research has shown a number of physique-enhancing benefits to HIIT:

? ?High intensity training may prove beneficial if used properly. For example, its potent stimulation of whole body lipolysis during exercise leads to a rapid influx of plasma free fatty acids after intensity is lowered. In this context, it is postulated that performing a notably short, high intensity session, followed by a long duration, low to moderate intensity workout, may optimize lipid oxidation.? (4)

By following HIIT with a little steady state cardio, you?ll oxidize mobilized FFAs so they don?t re-esterify into triglyceride and hang around. Cool eh?

? In fact, HIIT may actually curtail the propensity for fat storage:

?...it is highly probable that sprinting-evoked, systemic AMPk activation simultaneously curtails an individual's natural genetic propensity for fat-storage as well. This is because, in response to the rapid ATP-depletion prompted by those repeated, maximal-intensity bouts of anaerobic expenditure, AMPk also works to curtail Acyl-coenzyme A: diacylglycerol acyltransferase (DGAT1) activity and glucose uptake into adipocytes.

This saves ATP for energy repletion rather than having it "misallocated" to synthesize new triacylglycerol (TAG) in your adipocytes. (5)

? HIIT has a higher EPOC (excess post-exercise oxygen consumption) than steady state cardio.

? It leads to rapid improvements in VO2max and endurance performance (6) ? this means you?ll perform better lifting workouts, too.

? It doesn?t promote the conversion of type IIb (the so-called "pure" fast-twitch muscles) to type IIa slow-twitch analogues (7) (see below, steady-state cardio discussion).

? And it can help increase carbohydrate metabolism, which can improve nutrient partitioning. (8)

HIIT doesn?t ?work? by burning off fat ? it works by stimulating catecholamines (9), and catecholamines strongly stimulate lipolysis in mammals. Plasma fatty acid concentrations increase dramatically immediately after intense exercise, where fatty-acid oxidation decreases. That?s why you do some steady state cardio at the end.

How often: If you?re going to do any cardio, do HIIT at least once and at most three times a week. Ideally, do it either on its own day, or on a leg day at least 6-8 hours away from your workout.

If you must do it in the same session as your workout, do it right after, on a leg day. Although this may seem counterintuitive, HIIT is quite the leg workout. Doing HIIT on upper body days may compromise recovery since your legs will have less time to rest.

What to eat: Because of the strong anaerobic component, feed HIIT the same as you would a lifting workout ? target some carbohydrate and protein to provide an available pool of amino acids and to stimulate the cortisol-blunting insulin response.

For those of us whose diets are lower in carbs, you?ll want a little carb in you pre-workout or you WON?T be able to give these sprints your all, much like a lifting workout. If your carb consumption is ample, just focus on post-HIIT carbs. At least one study showed that post-workout carbs/protein didn't impact FFA burning post-exercise: ?in the post-exercise recovery period, muscle glycogen resynthesis has high metabolic priority, resulting in post-exercise lipid combustion despite a high carbohydrate intake?. (10) So your post-workout Nitrean shake with dextrose is fine here.

Sample 20-something minute HIIT workout

I do these on side-by-side treadmills. And yes, it looks ridiculous to see me hopping from one treadmill to the other. (11)

? Three to five minute fast incline walk to warm up (3.5 mph, 3-5% grade works for me)
? Flat-out (but safe!) sprint for 20 seconds (I do these at 10 MPH, flat)
? Return to a fast incline walk for 40-60 seconds.
? Repeat 6-9 times. Try to increase the number of sprints you can do each week.
? Finish with 10-20 minutes of fast incline walking to burn off the free fatty acids mobilized by the intervals.

HIIT Variations

If you?re going to do more than one HIIT workout a week, you could do one with as many as 12 sprints with a 20:40 work:rest ratio, and the other with as many as 8 sprints with a 30:60 work:rest split.

For those new to exercise:

Of course, if you are new to exercise, do NOT jump into HIIT! Ease into it slowly ? start with steady state a few times a week, then gradually introduce short periods of modestly increased intensity as you feel able.

For example, instead of sprinting, you could do something as simple as alternating periods of faster and slower walking. While not HIIT, it IS interval training, and will get you used to varying the intensity while you build up your fitness level ? particularly if you?re still significantly over fat. As you drop to lower and lower levels of body fat and your conditioning improves, you can increase your ?sprint? speed accordingly.

Another option: Tabata

For those of you who find a 20:40 work:recovery interval too leisurely, may I suggest Tabata...

? 20 seconds high intensity work (you should reach failure/exhaustion)
? 10 seconds rest
? 8 sets = 4 (really, really brutal) minutes in total
? You can do it with sprinting on a track (probably the best), sprinting on a bike (also very good), or even with weights (squats, thrusters, chin-ups, push-ups, etc).

Check out www.cbass.com/FATBURN.HTM[/URL" target="_blank"> for more detailed info.

Stubborn Fat Loss protocol

Toward the end of a cut, when you?ve hit your body fat target (or close) but are left with small, stubborn pockets of subcutaneous fat that will NOT budge, there is a variant of HIIT that may be helpful ? the so-called Stubborn Fat Loss protocol (12). I?ll discuss this in an upcoming article (don?t worry, it?s already written) but don?t worry about it for now ? after Christmas eats, we?re all FAR too fluffy to benefit from this one JUST yet... <burp!>

quote:<HR>Originally posted by hubitron:
[b]

Originally posted by ClydesJohn:
If you burn a higher percentage of fat vs carbs at lower intensity, then you ARE burning more fat.
<HR>

If you run the same mileage at a lower intensity, yes, you will burn more fat for that workout. If you run the same amount of time, no, you will burn more fat because rate of energy expenditure raises much more quickly with intensity than the percentage of energy which comes from using fat as energy decreases. At any rate, that particular discussion may or may not have much to do with weight loss anyway. The body's mechanism for storing fat is mainly governed by hormonal signals. It won't help if you burn fat, but then your body reacts by immediately adding it back. How do you think bodybuilders manage those insane physiques? They inject hormones that bring them down to 3-5% body fat...dangerously low.

There is a balance, of course, since running at high intensity all the time will burn you out. You definitely won't burn more calories if you're sitting on your butt nursing an injury, or staggering through workouts because you're still recovering from the last one.

Otherwise, I agree with both ClydesJohn and runawayjesse. Build up a mileage base for a bit, doing fairly easy jogging. No heart bursting intervals for a bit...30-40 mpw is a pretty reasonable program. Once you're body is accustomed to that, then you can add some high intensity stuff, once a week. Another day you could add a tempo run (a pace you could sustain for about an hour maximum). I suggest waiting for the high intensity stuff until your joints and tendons are strengthened by doing the slower mileage.

The whole HIIT thing looks a little overblown to me, though. It smells a lot like talking in a scientific way without enough data to back up the overly specific claims they make. Regardless, mixing in higher intensity training will improve your overall fitness.

Watch your diet, of course. Eliminate **** like sodas and these flavored waters, etc. that give you these ultra-refined sugars, high fructose blah blah blah and such...things that the human body can digest, but definitely didn't evolve doing so. Stay away from mocha-frappachino-mega-latte junk. Plain old water really is a good thing. I wouldn't be surprised if the "obesity crisis" is someday traced entirely to our society's fascination with consuming food made in factories.

There's never any guarantee about losing weight, but you'll definitely get more fit. That's probably what matters more in the long run anyway. I'll say it again. Weight is just a number. There are millions of other numbers describing the state of your body. If it goes down, great. If not, still great, since you've gained a great deal of fitness throughout.

P.S. Stop exceeding your max HR .[/B]

You do not need conditioning to do HIIT. It's not like that at all. Most bodybuilders do nothing other than HITT for aerobic exercise. It's not overblown. I have seen it shed body fat off people like nothing else. I'm speaking from experience on this one. Ask any bodybuilder what kind of cardio they do when they cut. Read that article I posted above too.

Basically, this thread starts up and takes the same from
about once every week or two. Here are some facts in a
very succinct form:

1. The more miles you run (that's miles, not time), the more
calories you burn and the more fat you will chisel off of your
body, no matter what the intensity. (The problem is that many
people run too many of their miles at too high of an intensity
and subsequently (1) need to run less because they are
so exhausted, (2) injure themselves and cannot run much anymore,
or (3) get so hungry because of the running intensity, they
more than make up for any extra mileage they run with extra
calories they take in.)

2. The lower the intensity you run, the higher percentage of
fat vs carb that you will use to fuel your run, which also correlates
to how much you use your anaerobic vs aerobic system. At too
low of an intensity, you're not running anymore - you will be walking.
Walking burns fewer calories than running. Although some higher
intensity training can kick up the metabolism you can easily
build a tremendous metabolism just by low intensity running. I
won't quote you experts - I'll just give you facts that come from
my own experiences and others that have given me their data.
I can now take in 10,000 calories per day without gaining a pound
and I don't burn nearly 10,000 calories per day exercising. Just
4 years ago, I weighed more than 50 lbs more than I weigh now,
I was gaining 1-2 lbs per week, and all I really ate were lean
cuisines, water, and rice cakes.
Don't expect to lose a lot of weight by running 20 or 30 miles per
week. If you really want to lose weight, run a good amount of
mileage and control your calorie intake. It's as simple as that.

3. If your heart rate is always high when you are running then you
are not running aerobically and you have poor endurance. Hence
you will be more susceptible to injury and overtraining, aside from
the fact that if you want to run any race of one mile or longer, you
won't be getting the most out of your aerobic system and you will
be wasting one of your fuel tanks. The way to develop your aerobic
system and lower your heart rate when you run is to run enough
miles aerobically (i.e., at lower heart rates). This may mean going
very slowly for a while.

------------------
MyRunningLog[/URL" target="_blank">
MyStuff[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ[/URL" target="_blank">
My marathons and ultras[/URL" target="_blank">
My races and reports[/URL" target="_blank">

quote:<HR>Originally posted by leitnerj:
Basically, this thread starts up and takes the same from
about once every week or two. Here are some facts in a
very succinct form:


2. The lower the intensity you run, the higher percentage of
fat vs carb that you will use to fuel your run, which also correlates
to how much you use your anaerobic vs aerobic system. At too
low of an intensity, you're not running anymore - you will be walking.
Walking burns fewer calories than running. Although some higher
intensity training can kick up the metabolism you can easily
build a tremendous metabolism just by low intensity running. I
won't quote you experts - I'll just give you facts that come from
my own experiences and others that have given me their data.
I can now take in 10,000 calories per day without gaining a pound
and I don't burn nearly 10,000 calories per day exercising. Just
4 years ago, I weighed more than 50 lbs more than I weigh now,
I was gaining 1-2 lbs per week, and all I really ate were lean
cuisines, water, and rice cakes.
Don't expect to lose a lot of weight by running 20 or 30 miles per
week. If you really want to lose weight, run a good amount of
mileage and control your calorie intake. It's as simple as that.



<HR>

This is what I don't get. You say the lower intensity you run the better for fat loss yet, but, but wait, don't think about walking. How the heck does your body know the difference? According to your logic it would actually be better to walk very slowly for 20 miles rather than run. After all low intensity exercise burns more fat right?

Also the more efficent you become at an exercise the less calories you will burn doing it. Regardless of time mileage whatever. When you get a new runner starting up running they might burn 100 calories per 10 min of running. If they hold that same intensity of running consistantly for some time their body will become effiecient at that activity and burn less calories. So in three months time they are now burning only 75 calories per 10 mins. Who gives a rats a** what percentage of of fat or carbs your burning you are burning less calories. This is exactly what training is- becoming effiecient. For us training to race it's a great deal. For weight loss not so good.

I agree running at high heart rates all the time isn't good BUT and it's a big but that doesn't mean it's bad to run at higher heart rates. You can effectively run at higher intensitys everyday if you wish and burn more calories in far less time than just jogging alone. Also higher heart rates doesn't automaticly mean it's anaerobic. You can sprint all out for 30 even 45 seconds with 1-2 min rest and not fall into oxygen depth. I know people that do this each and every run they do and they build their aerobic capacity. This is very aerobic and the variation in intensity will burn more calories, a greater percentage of fat, and boost matobolism. It also holds the benefit of recruting more muscle fibers. The jog recoveries work type I while the sprints work Type II. Jogging alone will not have this benefit till wayyy late in the run and you tire all your type I muscle fibers.

Another caveat to jogging all high mileage for weight loss. Lots and i mean lots of that weight loss will come from muscle mass. Running at a steady intensity for long time periods will burn a portain of fat, protien and carbs weather you like it or not. Muscle mass speeds matablosim. If you are dieting it isn't wise to lose muscle. So what lift weights? Go jog 100 miles per week and it completely cancels out your weight training. Your merly working to replace lost muscle. Add a reduced calorie diet on top of that and weight training is now almost a wast of time.

Jesse, can you comment on my article on HIIT I posted above?