I'm making my way through archive MAF thread #2. Jimmy, you had just hit 100 miles in one week and were very proud. Jesse just did a trail 50 miler where his GPS crapped out and said he ran 317 miles. It's really cool that this thread has been going for so long and you can see the improvements people have made!

One thing that was stressed a lot was this no carbs 3 hours before the run. Does that mean no bread/sugar type carbs? What about the carbs found in veggies or fruit? Meat and fat only?

I overslept and couldn't run this AM. I'm doing a treadmill run this afternoon and need to schedule lunch. I have chicken and bit of cheese and broccoli. Do I need to be overly concerned when I eat it?

Thanks!
~Mary

quote:<HR>Originally posted by dfcameron:
Runner 1967 -

Oh boy, I can chime in here. I ran high school track and XC (although I'm a little older than you) in similar times. My 5K PR was 17:47. My max HR was certainly over 200 then.

Fast forward to today. I'm now 44. My max HR is probably 183. My MAF is about 145. Most of my training is between 9:00-9:30 pace with occasional tempo runs at 7:00 min/mi pace.

I have no doubt that right now (if it were a little cooler) I could break a 3:40 marathon. I've always been able to race a marathon at least 1 min/mi faster than MAF pace for long runs.

5 years ago, just before I turned 40, I ran with friends who often left me behind in training runs. We'd start at 9:00 min/mi pace; and they'd often pick it up to around 8:40. I'd stay at 9:00, because at 8:40 - my HR would edge over what "felt right". Yet... on marathon day, I ran a 3:27, and they ran 3:30-3:35 (depending on person).

Now, with age 45 looming between now and the next Boston, the qualifying time eases to 3:30. I now have a new goal - get under 3:30. I've upped my mileage - ran 257 in April, 264 in May, 260 in June and will build a little more. I need a really strong aerobic base before I get back into speed work.

Sounds like we're similar in ability... So everyone's different; but you can set your sights high if you get the base in using LHR.<HR>

I'm also in the ballpark age-wise, although less experienced. I ran MCM at @ 86% max HR and National Marathon (DC) at @ 88%. I was 6 minutes faster at National and pushed hard the last 5 miles (BQ). I have a relatively low max HR, so I'm not a MAFF guy, but I do try to follow the low HR principles generally. Having said that, in preparation for National, I cranked up my long runs a notch or two (73% and up to 83% max HR near the end) and did a tempo run each week. Even then, my marathon day runs were faster and easier than those infernal long runs which were almost always at least 1:15 slower per mile, and usually closer to 1:45. I ran fewer miles though -- for whatever reason, I have trouble getting over 50 mpw.

I don't believe, by the way, that your max HR fell 17 bpm over time. Maybe a couple. Max HR is essentially fixed.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Runner1967:
OK, maybe I'm just naturally gifted or I'm going to be injury prone for the rest of my running career... but here goes.
<snip>
Twenty odd years ago I was a cross country runner finishing my 5k's in 18 minutes or so with a PR at 17:52, if I remember correctly.
<snip>
I've only been truly running since January/February
<snip>
I'm not a Kenyan by any means but after reading all of this I feel like I have a "leg up" (pun not intended) on many other newbie runners or I'm doing something very wrong.
<snip>
I have a progressive ordering of goals for my training.

1. Finish the marathon.
2. Finish the marathon in under 4 hours.
3. Finish the marathon in under 3:40
4. Finish the marathon and qualify for Boston (3:20 based on my age during my first marathon).

The first two appear to be relatively realistic. The 3rd would be a dream goal. and the 4th, well... probably not my first time out but if you don't set your goals high, you'll always be a bottom feeder.<HR>

Runner1967 ?

You definitely have a leg up on me, I never could have been an xc or track runner in hs, I was way too slow and have no athletic talent.

Just train the best you can, and don't race so hard you crash or get injured or totally burned out. If you just let what happens on race day happen, and then go with the flow, you'll have the best results.


At age 39 I had been jogging/running for a few years and had just completed a year where I ran consistently about 5 days a week and logged about 2000 miles. Training pace was mostly in the 8:00 - 8:30 range. 1st 21-miler was just adding another 7-mile loop to the first two. Then for my first marathon I was afraid of "hitting the wall" so I ran comfortably at 8:00 pace or so for the first 20 miles. At the 20-mile aid station the guy handing me the cup of water said "Man, you look fresh." That just psyched me up... I said "I FEEL GREAT", and just took off. The adrenaline was pumping, and I started passing people. Not a big marathon, but I passed 219 people between 20 miles and the finish... at a pace of 6:30 per mile or better. What a rush. Finished under 3:20. Most enjoyable marathon ever.

A year and a half after that first marathon, I had stopped using training schedules for a couple months and had just been running for pure enjoyment, just to feel good. No big expectations for the marathon I was going to run... I didn't even make up my mind which one until the day before (I had registered for two, one on Saturday, one on Sunday.) I was late getting there and had to jog over a mile to get to the start on time. It wasn't until a few miles in that I realized I was having a good day, and might be able to achieve one of my long-time goals. Long story short - I ran a 2:57 that day, and was so psyched up to do a sub-3:00 at age 40 that I could only sleep 3 hours that night. I woke up at 2:30 AM, couldn't sleep... still psyched, got my gear, drove 180 miles, and ran the other marathon... somewhat slower at 3:41, but what the heck. Then drove 180 miles home to get some sleep.

Why do I mention this? Well...
1) If I had had a goal of breaking 3 hours that Saturday, I probably couldn't have done it,
2) If I had had a goal of running both marathons, I certainly couldn't have run that 2:57 PR,

But, I did have a long-term goal, however unrealistic it seemed, to maybe someday be able to run a sub 3 hour marathon. Maybe. Someday.

I didn't plan for all that on that particular weekend, but I just let things happen, and went along with the way it worked out.

I like Long Run Nick's suggestion: have a goal of running for the rest of your life. If you do that, all these other things will happen, in due time.

Gino

quote:<HR>Originally posted by martinjames:
I don't believe, by the way, that your max HR fell 17 bpm over time. Maybe a couple. Max HR is essentially fixed. <HR>

Strong disagreement here. The "rule of thumb" (which has wide variance) is that Max HR is 220 minus age.

For me, and for all my friends ( that measure heart rate ), max HR is fixed over a short period of time - but over years, steadily declines. It may not be "one beat per year", but it definitely declines.

For me (when in shape), and 8:00 min/mi pace corresponds to a heart rate of between 155 and 160. The problem is, when I was 25, that was only about 78% of max HR - and I could keep it up for a long time w/o waste buildup. Now, its 86% of max HR - and if I do a longish run at that pace, I'm whipped for days afterward. Eventually, when I'm 65, that WILL be my max.

catwoman,
I am a newbie, but I can tell you my experience. I am also hypoglycemic and thought I had to eat before my runs. After reading the threads here, I dedided to give it a try. I have run first thing in the morning without eating with no problerms. Last week I did 12 miles and just sipped a little Gatorade. I didn't eat for an hour after my run and still did well. I actually find I do much better on an empty stomach. If I eat, I end up with bathroom issues. Just my experience FWIW.

bluelake

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Long Run Nick:
I have come to the conclusion that most of us end up being an experiment of one.
<HR>

Ain't that a fact!

Thanks for the reply, blue. Its nice to know that there are other hypoglycemics out there using this method successfully.

I think I'm going to take the next week's worth of runs to experiment a little bit, and see what works best for me nutritionally. I have 8 miles planned for tomorrow, and plan to try to run it with a very small, non-carb snack before hand. My next run, I'll try to go without eating, and see how that goes.

Jesse- don't worry- I would never do anything to endanger myself. Since I started running, I've always kept my cell phone handy, in case I crash and need my DH to come pick me up (I'm sure he'd appreciate that at 6:00 a.m. on a Saturday!!!). And I always carry a snack with me, just in case- though I've never had to use it! I've been dealing with this since my early teens, and always make dietary changes with great caution. The timing for this little experiment is actually quite good- I'm in the very early stages of training for my 2nd HM, so none of my runs at this point are terribly long.

Thanks for the great advice, everyone. I'll keep you posted!

Pam