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1,198 Replies Last post: Jan 8, 2008 3:34 PM by formationflier Go to original post 1 ... 34 35 36 37 38 ... 80 Previous Next

DavidD063

361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007

525. Aug 22, 2007 4:34 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Let me see if I can clarify what I'm asking. I don't want to be an elite marathoner. I think what I'm trying to ask is does doing anaerobic work simultaneously improve your aerobic abilities? That's what I was trying to note about the people I mentioned above. Mark Allen is probably the clearest example. He trained all out, no pain no gain. He STARTED MAF running 8:15/min miles. Did his anaerobic development training also increase his aerobic capacity? Would someone who does little slow running show improvement in their anaerobic ability comparable to what people get in low HR training? I think that's more clear. <HR>

The whole idea is that training aerobically will make you faster -- both aerobically and anaerobically. (And, after building a good aerobic base you add some type of speed work). This is Maffetone's approach.

Mark Allen trained most of the time (as I've heard him speak, and things I read) aerobically. So he didn't train all out (not 'no pain no gain), but rather, had such a fast MAF that he often was well below that pace in his daily runs.

I think younger athletes (who can handle stress much better) can improve their aerobic capacity by training hard - but only for a relatively short period. Then they crash.

Some of the young college athletes I tested would be clearly overtraining and build great (for them) aerobic capacity, but often get injured or sick soon after. And, I'd find their RQ was relatively high (more sugar, less fat burning), so maybe we can't say their aerobic system was so good.

DanMoriarity

823 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

526. Aug 22, 2007 4:57 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Did his anaerobic development training also increase his aerobic capacity? Would someone who does little slow running show improvement in their anaerobic ability comparable to what people get in low HR training? <HR>

I'm not a physiologist, but based on experience I would think that you can derive some aerobic benefits from anaerobic training, but that anaerobic training is not the most efficient way of developing aerobically.

Also, the amount you can improve anaerobically is somewhat limited, no matter how much anaerobic training you do, so what you often see with runners who do primarily anaerobic running is that they improve quickly for a short period of time and then their performances level off or they start to breakdown.

Your aerobic system takes much longer to develop, but it is much more trainable and less stressful on the body, so with someone who trains primarily aerobically, they may improve slowly at first, but they can continue to improve for a long time.

aharmer

460 posts since
May 25, 2005

527. Aug 22, 2007 6:02 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

Hey Greg,

You've received some great information here. Mark Allen clearly needed Maf-style training because even though he started at 8:15/mile, he very quickly improved to 5:30/mile or something crazy like that at the equivalent intensity. You can't compare yourself to anybody else's starting point because every person truly is an experiment of one. Another person that runs 12:00/pace at their Maf number may have a great aerobic base. Their genetic potential may be just very slightly better than 12:00/mile.

Think of your fitness level as a pyramid. The top of the pyramid is the anaerobic stuff, the sharpening period before races, etc. The base of the pyramid is your aerobic base. With a small foundation, the pyramid can only go so high...your running can only improve as much as what your foundation allows. That's why elites will build base, sharpen, race, and then build base again. They take the pyramid as high as is possible with their existing foundation and then go back to the bottom and start building that base level even larger which allows them to build the entire pyramid larger all the way up to the point. This time when they get to the point it's higher than it was the previous time.

Keep in mind this is only my way of looking at things, it could be complete BS! Best of luck with whatever method you choose!

------------------
My Profile[/URL" target="_blank">

"Pain is temporary. Regret hurts forever."
~~URL=http://www.analytical-training.blogspot.com~~

DavidD063

361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007

528. Aug 22, 2007 7:18 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
I'm not a physiologist, but based on experience I would think that you can derive some aerobic benefits from anaerobic training, but that anaerobic training is not the most efficient way of developing aerobically.

Also, the amount you can improve anaerobically is somewhat limited, no matter how much anaerobic training you do, so what you often see with runners who do primarily anaerobic running is that they improve quickly for a short period of time and then their performances level off or they start to breakdown.

Your aerobic system takes much longer to develop, but it is much more trainable and less stressful on the body, so with someone who trains primarily aerobically, they may improve slowly at first, but they can continue to improve for a long time. <HR>

I know a lot of physiologists who could not say it any better.

IceStorm213

354 posts since
Nov 1, 2005

529. Aug 22, 2007 10:53 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by DavidD:
I know a lot of physiologists who could not say it any better. <HR>

I know a professed physiologist who couldn't even have come close -- but it doesn't stop him from trying.

jjwaverly42

337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

530. Dec 22, 2007 12:27 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

Still doing gobs of 4-6 milers. Mostly 5's, some doubles. Almost thru the process (new home). Weekly mileage has been low, but I've been making progress. I guess cutting down was the right thing during this stressful time (heat as well). Fall's coming. YEAH!

Keep going!

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

profile[/URL" target="_blank">

http://This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Aug-23-2007).

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

531. Aug 23, 2007 12:16 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

Been on travel for the last week with minimal time and
internet access - glad this thread has a life of its own!
Lots of good inputs are flowing ...

------------------
MyRunningLog[/URL" target="_blank">
MyStuff[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ[/URL" target="_blank">
My marathons and ultras[/URL" target="_blank">
My races and reports[/URL" target="_blank">

Long Run Nick

265 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

532. Aug 23, 2007 2:47 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by leitnerj:
Been on travel for the last week with minimal time and
internet access - glad this thread has a life of its own!
Lots of good inputs are flowing ...

<HR>

Welcome back--we missed you. Nick

nizerifin

2 posts since
Jul 17, 2007

533. Aug 23, 2007 10:57 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

I've got a question about heart rate limits. Tonight it was uber-hot out (at 10:30 pm, no less). Within a minute of running very slow my heart rate was at 170, which is my limit. I find this very frustrating, since I have to stop and walk a mere minute after starting my run! So I stop and walk and my heart rate slows down to about 155 after a minute or so. Then I start running again and BAM! 30 seconds later it's back up to 170 - or higher. So I walk again. 1 minute later it's back to 155. I run again, and no surprise, it's back up to 170 instantly. What's up with this?!

I've been doing this for a few weeks so far without any noticeable effects.

Long Run Nick

265 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

534. Aug 24, 2007 7:37 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by nizerifin:
I've got a question about heart rate limits. Tonight it was uber-hot out (at 10:30 pm, no less). Within a minute of running very slow my heart rate was at 170, which is my limit. I find this very frustrating, since I have to stop and walk a mere minute after starting my run! So I stop and walk and my heart rate slows down to about 155 after a minute or so. Then I start running again and BAM! 30 seconds later it's back up to 170 - or higher. So I walk again. 1 minute later it's back to 155. I run again, and no surprise, it's back up to 170 instantly. What's up with this?!

I've been doing this for a few weeks so far without any noticeable effects. <HR>

Might be a faulty heart rate monitor--OR a faulty heart. Seriously, have a friend wear it and see if it acts strangely. Wear their heart rate monitor and see if you are seeing the same HR response. Another thought -- make sure the contact points are wet and you aren't wearing the HR monitor upside down. If you around a lot of power lines they can cause faulty readings. How do you know your max hr is 170? If you provide some specifics:age/sex/ht/wt/yrs running we (forum members) may be able to trouble shoot some more. Gee, I just read this and think it is a great reply to your query. Nick

saviorfaire

188 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

535. Aug 24, 2007 9:07 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR> I've got a question about heart rate limits. Tonight it was uber-hot out (at 10:30 pm, no less). Within a minute of running very slow my heart rate was at 170, which is my limit. I find this very frustrating, since I have to stop and walk a mere minute after starting my run! So I stop and walk and my heart rate slows down to about 155 after a minute or so. Then I start running again and BAM! 30 seconds later it's back up to 170 - or higher. So I walk again. 1 minute later it's back to 155. I run again, and no surprise, it's back up to 170 instantly. What's up with this?!
I've been doing this for a few weeks so far without any noticeable effects<HR>

You probably are not running slow enough. I've been doing LHR training the last two weeks. Once I got my monitor, it was pure **** to keep my heart rate under 135bpm. I started a thread last weeked titled something like: "I look like an old man"... I tell you I was running so slow, pedestrians were walking past me. Many times I had to stop and walk to get the rate down. Now, it is only in the few hills and noticable inclines where my heart rate rises.

DavidD063

361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007

536. Aug 25, 2007 11:56 AM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

As I've said, and others, a common problem (one of THE most common) is not being accurate (or honest) with the 180 formula calculations. So you end up training mildly anaerobically, still train slower so you think it can't be anaerobic, and not progress.

fredurie

1,979 posts since
Aug 21, 2002

537. Aug 25, 2007 12:01 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

No problem.

Friday
AM 8 miles very slow, HR 75 to 89

aharmer

460 posts since
May 25, 2005

538. Aug 25, 2007 12:25 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by DavidD:
As I've said, and others, a common problem (one of THE most common) is not being accurate (or honest) with the 180 formula calculations. So you end up training mildly anaerobically, still train slower so you think it can't be anaerobic, and not progress.<HR>

Good point David. Remember, first do an honest calculation of your training HR. Then stay at or below that HR during the entire run...even on hills. Even in hot weather. Even at the end of the run. Even if you have to walk. Your average HR at the end of the run should be below your Maff number...if not you're not being strict enough.

fredurie

1,979 posts since
Aug 21, 2002

539. Aug 25, 2007 12:29 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

Even if you have to walk??????

Then how can it be training?

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