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1,198 Replies Last post: Jan 8, 2008 3:34 PM by formationflier   Go to original post 1 ... 46 47 48 49 50 ... 80 Previous Next
Click to view DavidD063's profile Legend 361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007
705. Sep 9, 2007 1:01 PM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gregolowe:
1) Jesse mentioned that he doesn't taper before races, feeling like he loses fitness when he's been low hr training. Should I taper before my VT50 attempt? <HR>


You can only gain fitness with a taper -- that's the whole purpose. Your aerobic engine will be much better for the race, your muscles well recovered and ready, etc.
Click to view gregw070's profile Legend 250 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
708. Sep 9, 2007 4:09 PM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
I'll echo what Jesse said that the taper depends on what kind of training you do leading up to the race. Last fall, I came into MCM on mostly LHR training (only last half of long runs above). I followed a traditional 3-week taper and I think it was way too much. I ran another marathon 4 weeks later (again LHR training) with barely a taper (ran an 18-mile long run the weekend before but took two rest days race week) and it was more than enough. This spring I did a more traditional marathon training program (Benji Durden's) and followed his taper (which is a little shorter than most). I felt like his taper was just perfect for me for that type of training.
Click to view DanMoriarity's profile Legend 823 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
709. Sep 10, 2007 8:31 AM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
Bill Rodgers has said he ran very poorly when he cut his mileage for more than 3-4 days before a marathon. Of course he wasn't strictly a LHR runner, but most of his non-speedwork days were relatively slow ( 6:30 per mile most days for a guy who could run a marathon at under 5 min mile pace ).

Personally, I think the length of the taper depends on how you're feeling, if you're feeling tired and have a few aches and pains, then you're probably better off cutting back a bit earlier, but on the other hand if you're feeling good with no problems you probably don't need to taper too much. I certainly don't believe inthe 3 week taper that many people recommend. 5-7 days is more like it for me, but it should be an individual matter, not something carved in stone.
Click to view Gregolowe's profile Legend 324 posts since
Jul 6, 2006
710. Sep 10, 2007 9:27 AM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
Okay, I appreciate the responses on the tapering. I'm asking the question because I fear I'm detraining. Let me explain by citing my weekly mileage for the last few months:
July 8- 31 miles
July 15- 29.5
July 22- 36 miles
July 29- 32.8
Aug. 5- 30.6
Aug.12- 40
Aug.19- 33.5
Aug.26- 26
Sep. 2- 45
The weeks of Aug 19 and 26 were due to skipping runs to rest as my resting hr was high. So, you can see the undulation. I'm going to keep my mileage up to 40+ for this week, then probably 40 for next week, then maybe 20 the week of the race. Thanks for the input.
Would ya'll please give me your input on race strategy? Should I pick a hr range above my MAF or 142, say 150-160, and stay in there, or should I just try to run as much as possible regardless of my HR? How do you race ultra's after doing low hr training? thanks.
Click to view apires's profile Rookie 3 posts since
Sep 10, 2007
711. Sep 10, 2007 10:43 AM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
I am trying to start a program using the low heart rate approach here in Brazil. I have bought Maffetone and Stu books. Although they look the same Stu has a different approach since he creates 3 different heart-rate zones based on MAF:

MAP (((MAF-10)-20)--MAF-10 )bpm,
MEP ((MAF-10) --- MAF)bpm,
SAP (MAF --- MAF+20)bpm.

Is this better than just using MAF?
Click to view saviorfaire's profile Pro 188 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
712. Sep 10, 2007 11:32 AM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Acb8d2:
Is there a heart rate monitor that everyone here really likes or would recommend?<HR>


I bought a Mark of Fitness MF-180 monitor, which does not require a chest strap. It fits on your wrist like a watch and there is a strap with velco that you wrap around your pointer finger with a sensor probe that goes on the fleshy part of the finger. It senses the reflexivity of the blood pulsing through your fingers.

It has numerous functions such as setting a high/lo range, warning alarm, time in hi/lo zone, recovery check, etc. The cost is about $70. I've had a few issues with it sensing and giving erroneous readings.
Click to view DavidD063's profile Legend 361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007
713. Sep 10, 2007 11:44 AM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
quote:<HR>Originally posted by apires:
I am trying to start a program using the low heart rate approach here in Brazil. I have bought Maffetone and Stu books. Although they look the same Stu has a different approach since he creates 3 different heart-rate zones based on MAF:

MAP (((MAF-10)-20)--MAF-10 )bpm,
MEP ((MAF-10) --- MAF)bpm,
SAP (MAF --- MAF+20)bpm.

Is this better than just using MAF?
<HR>


As per a previous discussion, Stu's approach is from Maffetone but much too complicated. Keep it simple. Do the 180 formula (as per Maffetone) but be honest with it. Build a good base. Be happy
Click to view CSuzette's profile Legend 290 posts since
Apr 8, 2005
714. Sep 10, 2007 11:49 AM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
quote:<HR>Originally posted by saviorfaire:
[b] I bought a Mark of Fitness MF-180 monitor, which does not require a chest strap. It fits on your wrist like a watch and there is a strap with velco that you wrap around your pointer finger with a sensor probe that goes on the fleshy part of the finger. It senses the reflexivity of the blood pulsing through your fingers.

It has numerous functions such as setting a high/lo range, warning alarm, time in hi/lo zone, recovery check, etc. The cost is about $70. I've had a few issues with it sensing and giving erroneous readings.[/b]<HR>


I use this monitor when I am doing the stairs in my apartment building. It is very accurate. But, outside it doesn't perform well if it is below about 60 degrees and if it is windy it sometimes doesn't work at all. Plus, you constantly have to be changing the battery which can get expensive.

Most monitors do not work well on me for some reason. I bought a Garmin 305 but couldn't get it to read other than 56. I now have bought some electrode gel and I will see if it works any better. Before that I returned about 5 monitors within the 30 day warranty. They would work until the batteries were less than perfect and then they would just read at like 260.
Click to view saviorfaire's profile Pro 188 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
715. Sep 10, 2007 12:07 PM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
The battery for the mf-180 cost a few dollars, and is available just about anywhere. I can get it at the place in nyc where I purchased my unit.

They recommend wearing a glove on your hand over the unit in cold weather, something like garden gloves and cutting a hole so that you can view the dial/face of the unit. Last winter, I ran as long as the temps were above 20, and wore gloves anyway.

I have had some issues with the first mf-180 I bought. It seemed that in extremely warm and humid conditions, if my HR would get above the high range setting it was start sky rocketing, particularly when I was perspiring excessively. I returned it for a replacement.

I had actually met someone from another running message forum who was involved in the development of this unit.
Click to view dfcameron's profile Pro 122 posts since
Apr 5, 2007
716. Sep 10, 2007 1:34 PM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Okay, I appreciate the responses on the tapering. I'm asking the question because I fear I'm detraining. Let me explain by citing my weekly mileage for the last few months:
July 8- 31 miles
July 15- 29.5
July 22- 36 miles
July 29- 32.8
Aug. 5- 30.6
Aug.12- 40
Aug.19- 33.5
Aug.26- 26
Sep. 2- 45
The weeks of Aug 19 and 26 were due to skipping runs to rest as my resting hr was high. So, you can see the undulation. I'm going to keep my mileage up to 40+ for this week, then probably 40 for next week, then maybe 20 the week of the race. Thanks for the input.
Would ya'll please give me your input on race strategy? Should I pick a hr range above my MAF or 142, say 150-160, and stay in there, or should I just try to run as much as possible regardless of my HR? How do you race ultra's after doing low hr training? thanks.
<HR>


Greg,

Jesse differs from me on this, but for a 50 miler, I generally approach it as a MAF training run. By about mile 3; I'm close to MAF - and try to leave it there for pretty much the entire run. For the last 5 miles or so, I'll let it drift up.

That's the strategy on an average mileage of about 45-55 MPW going in. If I were doing more mileage (like Jesse), I might try going harder.

For road marathons or 50Ks though, I don't do the same thing. I'll average 10 beats over MAF for a marathon. Not sure for a 50K; maybe 5 beats over? For a 50-miler though; I'll average a few beats under. Never run farther than 50.

FWIW, this fall, I'm running the Detroit Marathon on Oct 21. I'm about to turn 45 soon, so I'm trying for a Boston qualifier. I've upped the mileage so that I've done 956 miles in the last 12 weeks cumulatively. Nearly all runs during this period were at LHR below MAF - because its the only way I could build to this volume. From here on in, I'm doing 1 speed session per week. I can pretty much guarantee you I'd be above MAF by mile 2 in the target marathon. But, I wouldn't try this for an ultra w/o the deep mileage base.
Click to view Gregolowe's profile Legend 324 posts since
Jul 6, 2006
717. Sep 10, 2007 2:28 PM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
Thanks dfcameron. This 50 miler has been my goal for 2 years. Mountain Masochist was my original goal till I got injured last year. I've had my sights on this one since January. It is the culmination of my training for the previous year. Following the race I will focus on low hr training till March or April at which point I will attempt Laurel Highlands 70 miler then a 100 miler later in the year. So, I want to run this race and am not worried about my HR going too high. If I were to "run" at MAF ( I put that in quotes cause 15:00 miles involves lots of walking(which is a little faster than the pace I just did in a 50K)), I would finish in something ridiculous like 12.5-13 hours. No way. I want to race this race as much as I am able without self destructing. Please don't think I'm dismissing your response, I'm just adding more of what I'm thinking so you know where I'm coming from. I'm not worried about hurting my aerobic "base". I will have completed 9 weeks of low hr training once the race rolls around and have the idea of just basically starting over for winter base building once the race is over.
Click to view Who Dey010's profile Pro 173 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
718. Sep 10, 2007 2:51 PM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
I'm struggling with determining a race pace as well (marathon in my case).

Rather than maintaining a constant HR and having my pace constantly change, I liked doing long training runs at a constant pace. I usually began them at MAF-10 and ended up MAF+10 by the end.

Not sure, however, how to target a race pace. Ideally, I would have some intermediate race results upon which to base a prediction, but I have not raced much ... certainly not under conditions I expect for the marathon.
Click to view dfcameron's profile Pro 122 posts since
Apr 5, 2007
719. Sep 10, 2007 4:34 PM in response to: formationflier
Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gregolowe:
Thanks dfcameron. This 50 miler has been my goal for 2 years. Mountain Masochist was my original goal till I got injured last year. I've had my sights on this one since January. It is the culmination of my training for the previous year. Following the race I will focus on low hr training till March or April at which point I will attempt Laurel Highlands 70 miler then a 100 miler later in the year. So, I want to run this race and am not worried about my HR going too high. If I were to "run" at MAF ( I put that in quotes cause 15:00 miles involves lots of walking(which is a little faster than the pace I just did in a 50K)), I would finish in something ridiculous like 12.5-13 hours. No way. I want to race this race as much as I am able without self destructing. Please don't think I'm dismissing your response, I'm just adding more of what I'm thinking so you know where I'm coming from. I'm not worried about hurting my aerobic "base". I will have completed 9 weeks of low hr training once the race rolls around and have the idea of just basically starting over for winter base building once the race is over. <HR>


OK. Good luck. I don't believe I'd be able to do it.... that is, I don't think I can run 50 miles at much above MAF. But, then again, MAF for me is at about 9:00 min/mi pace (in decent weather). FWIW, I did my 50 miler in 9:57 (12 min/mi pace), but the terrain was much tougher than on the road. On a similar terrain for a 10 mile run, my MAF is closer to 11:00 min/mi pace.