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1,198 Replies Last post: Jan 8, 2008 3:34 PM by formationflier Go to original post 1 ... 53 54 55 56 57 ... 80 Previous Next

teresaa spencer

17 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

810. Sep 19, 2007 3:28 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

I've already had more fun! I just hope I'm doing everything correctly, and I think I am. That's part of the beauty of it--the simplicity.

DavidD063

361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007

811. Sep 19, 2007 3:50 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by teresaa spencer:
I've already had more fun! I just hope I'm doing everything correctly, and I think I am. That's part of the beauty of it--the simplicity.<HR>

Great!

It is simple. Maffetone has taken something that is very simple, incorporated some very complex physiology, and kept it simple. That's the way it should be.

BrandonE

127 posts since
Nov 7, 2007

812. Sep 19, 2007 3:57 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fatdude:
Just a quick question. I am reading alot about controlling breathing. I don't have a hard time with it, but I am curious how others control it.

How do you control your breathing?

Kent

<HR>

In my experience, if I'm running hard enough that I actually think consciously about breathing and get to the point where I'm counting steps/breath, I'm running too hard and I'm WELL over my MAF. When I'm running below MAF, I don't think about breath at all, like I'm just sitting around. Only when my body is having a hard time keeping up with the oxygen demand do I fall into the breath/step pattern (which happens pretty easily for me as a very rhythmically inclined person).

Fatdude

93 posts since
Dec 27, 2005

813. Sep 19, 2007 4:14 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

(which happens pretty easily for me as a very rhythmically inclined person).

[/B][/QUOTE]

Rhythmically inclined person...I amnot. Heck I guess if this running thing was as easy as it sounds everybody would run! Thanks for the thoughts!

Although it feels like torture at times, I am proud to say I am a runner even if I once thought runners were CRAZY!!!

Kent

------------------
"One foot in front of the other"
ME[/URL" target="_blank">

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

814. Sep 19, 2007 7:49 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by kommish77:
Ok, I posted a few weeks ago that my MAF training was going pretty good, so I was very excited to see the Dew Point drop 20 degrees for 3 or 4 recent runs. The problem is these runs ended up being my worst runs in quite a few weeks.

I can live with that. Maybe the excitement and thrill and anticipation of being able to run faster during those runs raised my HR and prevented me from running faster!

Anyway, I have been running MAF now for almost 16 weeks. I run four 1 hour runs and one 1.5 hour run a week at MAF 140, my pace somewhere in the 13 minute range. I set my HRM to allow me to run between 130-140 bpm. After 16 weeks I am still walking about 40% of the time. Is this normal, or should I be able to "run" the whole way? A few times last night I counted my steps while running and walking. I was running around 120-150 steps before I reached 141 and then I would walk around 50-60 steps before I reached 129 and started running again. It is getting a little frustrating! At the end of my run last night, after hitting 129, I "ran" as slow as I could and I did last longer before going over MAF, but I was taking 6 inch steps (the heel of my shoe would land about 6 inches in front of the toe of the other shoe). I calculated my pace when I got home, using runningmap.com to figure out how far I'd run, and I am guessing I was slogging along at about a 20 minute pace.

Should I keep running/walking? Should I run at 20 minute pace?

Most importantly, should I still be this aerobically unfit after this amount of time? Any success stories out there that started out sounding like mine?

Thanks<HR>

It's difficult to say one way or the other whether you are aerobically
unfit. I wonder if you have leveled off due to doing too much of
the same thing, over and over again. By now, I would say that you
you should be running pretty much the whole time, especially
with the lower dewpoints. I just wonder if you've gone too far
with incorporating the walks as opposed to using them for a
brief recovery. Are you getting in any downhill running? If so,
do you keep up the pace so that your heart rate doesn't fall much
below your MAF? If you're always doing the same pace, and
furthermore the same distances, you may be deteriorating your
running economy.

------------------
MyRunningLog[/URL" target="_blank">
MyStuff[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ[/URL" target="_blank">
My marathons and ultras[/URL" target="_blank">
My races and reports[/URL" target="_blank">

kommish77

151 posts since
May 23, 2002

815. Sep 19, 2007 8:48 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by leitnerj:
It's difficult to say one way or the other whether you are aerobically
unfit. I wonder if you have leveled off due to doing too much of
the same thing, over and over again. By now, I would say that you
you should be running pretty much the whole time, especially
with the lower dewpoints. I just wonder if you've gone too far
with incorporating the walks as opposed to using them for a
brief recovery. Are you getting in any downhill running? If so,
do you keep up the pace so that your heart rate doesn't fall much
below your MAF? If you're always doing the same pace, and
furthermore the same distances, you may be deteriorating your
running economy.

<HR>

I have 3 different routes, but about 80% of those routes consist of the same roads. One of the routes I can add 2 hills which I will hit each of the 2-4 loops. These aren't huge hills. I usually walk up and then run down but my HRM is usually beeping before I am done going down the hill.

I would love to be able to run different paces, but my only option is slower, which I can't live with if it is going to be 20 minute miles. I don't mind 15 minute miles, but 20.... arghhh!

Any ideas of what I could try? Someone earlier mentioned he bumped his HR up to 150, from 140, and saw some improvement. I know at that point it isn't MAF

Thanks again for your time.

Nosy

14 posts since
Jul 26, 2007

816. Sep 19, 2007 9:10 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fatdude:
Just a quick question. I am reading alot about controlling breathing. I don't have a hard time with it, but I am curious how others control it.

How do you control your breathing?

Kent

<HR>

I control my breathing by restricting myself to nose breathing while running, and by maintaining a breathing pattern. I take 3 steps per second when I run, with 3 steps per in-breath and 12 steps per out-breath. (ie. roughly 1s in, 4s out). It is effortless now (even on hills) but has taken about 18 months of training to get to this point. I am not suggesting that this pattern is ideal, although I do believe that the exhale should be longer than the inhale, and that the air should not be pushed out but allowed to trickle out in a relaxed fashion.

Although most people believe you should try to get as much air as possible, breath training is very similar to LHR training. Initially I had to stop running and walk in order to breathe through my nose. Gradually over time it became easier, and now I can run at any pace - sometimes I do sprint intervals where I sprint until I reach my "nose breathing threshold" (NBT) and then walk or jog to recover.

I started nose breathing as part of the buteyko treatment for asthma. My asthma was "cured", by that I mean I have been medication and symptom free for over a year now (after 20+ years on meds).

After 12 weeks of LHR training my training pace has improved from about 6hr marathon pace to under 5hr marathon pace at an HR of 130. Prior to this I was training at roughly 4hr marathon pace. Incidentally, before I discovered LHR training (in particular this thread and Jesse's FAQ) I used my NBT to restrict my training pace in the same way that I now use my MAF (well actually I use MAF - 10). Whereas the MAF seems more fixed, NBT rises significantly with training, I don't believe there is any relationship between the two values.

formationflier

989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007

817. Sep 19, 2007 9:12 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by kommish77:
I have 3 different routes, but about 80% of those routes consist of the same roads. One of the routes I can add 2 hills which I will hit each of the 2-4 loops. These aren't huge hills. I usually walk up and then run down but my HRM is usually beeping before I am done going down the hill.

I would love to be able to run different paces, but my only option is slower, which I can't live with if it is going to be 20 minute miles. I don't mind 15 minute miles, but 20.... arghhh!

Any ideas of what I could try? Someone earlier mentioned he bumped his HR up to 150, from 140, and saw some improvement. I know at that point it isn't MAF

Thanks again for your time.

<HR>

You are certainly right to ask questions. Sometimes bumping
the heart rate up is the right answer (because you're just not getting
in enough where you pick up the pace a bit) and sometimes
bumping it down is the right answer (because you're still not
down at a low enough respiratory quotient). Without a test
that provides RQ, it's hard to say. What happens if you run on
the treadmill, removing all other environmental factors? Do you
have that option? There's no doubt that you need some variation
from what you're doing. Maybe you've done enough the first
phase and it's time to incorporate one or two runs a week at
a higher heart rate. Maybe more variety would be a good answer.
Perhaps there are diet or stress factors, I'm not sure. It's
time to play mad scientist, pull out the test tubes, try something
and keep track of what you're doing.

------------------
MyRunningLog[/URL" target="_blank">
MyStuff[/URL" target="_blank">
Low Heart Rate Training FAQ[/URL" target="_blank">
My marathons and ultras[/URL" target="_blank">
My races and reports[/URL" target="_blank">

slowgino

88 posts since
Jan 13, 2007

818. Sep 19, 2007 10:00 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by kommish77:
I usually walk up and then run down but my HRM is usually beeping before I am done going down the hill.

I would love to be able to run different paces, but my only option is slower, which I can't live with if it is going to be 20 minute miles. I don't mind 15 minute miles, but 20.... arghhh!

Any ideas of what I could try? Someone earlier mentioned he bumped his HR up to 150, from 140, and saw some improvement. I know at that point it isn't MAF ...

Thanks again for your time.

<HR>

If your MAF is 140, you might be interested in the following data. I got access to the measured Aerobic Threshold (AeT) and Anaerobic Threshold (AT) from VO2 tests taken by 70-80 local runners (some cyclists, some do triathlons.) Here are Aerobic Thresholds for people aged 38-42 who took these tests:

106, 108, 163, 107, 162, 116, 153, 159, 110, 160, 129, 128, 133, 158, 133.

Notice that there's quite a spread here. Are you a 40 year old with an AeT of 116, or is yours 153? Maybe you're like a 41 year old with an Aerobic Threshold of 160? The only way to tell for sure is to have a VO2 test.

Around here one can get a good VO2 test (showing HR, RQ, and pace through your whole range... and more...) for under $200. From this you also get recommendations about training range(s) etc. The Respiratory Quotient (RQ) shows the % of energy from fat metabolism and carb (glycogen) metabolism.

As for "180-age" MAF? It's a start. Note though that in the data of 15 age 38-42 folks above, 9 of those 15 had an Aerobic Threshold 20 or more bpm different (lower or higher) than 180-age.

Your HR recovery rate might be a clue. How long does it take your HR to return to halfway between your MAF and your resting HR after you stop running and just walk very slowly (not standing still...)?

Good luck in your training.

kommish77

151 posts since
May 23, 2002

819. Sep 19, 2007 10:32 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by leitnerj:
You are certainly right to ask questions. Sometimes bumping
the heart rate up is the right answer (because you're just not getting
in enough where you pick up the pace a bit) and sometimes
bumping it down is the right answer (because you're still not
down at a low enough respiratory quotient). Without a test
that provides RQ, it's hard to say. What happens if you run on
the treadmill, removing all other environmental factors? Do you
have that option? There's no doubt that you need some variation
from what you're doing. Maybe you've done enough the first
phase and it's time to incorporate one or two runs a week at
a higher heart rate. Maybe more variety would be a good answer.
Perhaps there are diet or stress factors, I'm not sure. It's
time to play mad scientist, pull out the test tubes, try something
and keep track of what you're doing.

<HR>

I haven't used my treadmill during this 16 week period, but I can if necessary. Last night during my run I got a little frustrated and l let my HRM beep away at me a few different times as I kept on running. I noticed those 3 or 4 times that my HR would pretty much top out, keeping the existing pace, at around 147. Not sure if that means anything or not, just found it interesting.

Stress I don't think is an issue. Diet stinks, but I just picked up a great book that I hope to use to fix my diet... Chris Carmichael's "Food For Fitness - Eat Right to Train Right." I have been making sure I don't have carbs 3 hours prior to my runs. Sleep may be an issue as I only get about 5-6 hours of sleep a night, but that seems to be all I need.

I just read the Hadd link from your signature and I was wondering if maybe I should go that route (I know I have seen 195 on my HRM before), which would allow me to bump up my HR a few beats.

I have to mention, like everyone else seems to, that my runs/walks are very enjoyable (except for when I get frustrated with too many walks) and I feel very refreshed the next day with little to no soreness and no major injuries.

I don't want to give up on LHR training but I want to make sure I am not wasting my time when I could try some tweaks that might really jump start my training. I will never go back to running each night to beat the previous night's pace, or trying to go farther each night at the same pace as a previous shorter run. Those days are over!

Thanks again for your time.

kommish77

151 posts since
May 23, 2002

820. Sep 19, 2007 10:42 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by slowgino:
If your MAF is 140, you might be interested in the following data. I got access to the measured Aerobic Threshold (AeT) and Anaerobic Threshold (AT) from VO2 tests taken by 70-80 local runners (some cyclists, some do triathlons.) Here are Aerobic Thresholds for people aged 38-42 who took these tests:

106, 108, 163, 107, 162, 116, 153, 159, 110, 160, 129, 128, 133, 158, 133.

Notice that there's quite a spread here. Are you a 40 year old with an AeT of 116, or is yours 153? Maybe you're like a 41 year old with an Aerobic Threshold of 160? The only way to tell for sure is to have a VO2 test.

Around here one can get a good VO2 test (showing HR, RQ, and pace through your whole range... and more...) for under .00. From this you also get recommendations about training range(s) etc. The Respiratory Quotient (RQ) shows the % of energy from fat metabolism and carb (glycogen) metabolism.

As for "180-age" MAF? It's a start. Note though that in the data of 15 age 38-42 folks above, 9 of those 15 had an Aerobic Threshold 20 or more bpm different (lower or higher) than 180-age.

Your HR recovery rate might be a clue. How long does it take your HR to return to halfway between your MAF and your resting HR after you stop running and just walk very slowly (not standing still...)?

Good luck in your training.<HR>

I am going to check into getting a test done, or at least price it! I don't see myself paying $200, but I might pay half of that.

Once I am done running I usually only walk for 2 or 3 minutes (I figure I have already been walking 25 minutes during an hour run) and then stretch for about 5 minutes. Usually at this point my HR is near 100. My MAF is 140, my resting is 70. So within 8 minutes I am below that halfway point. I can continue walking to see how long it takes, if that would help determine something.

Thanks for your help as well.

DavidD063

361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007

821. Sep 20, 2007 12:41 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

quote:<HR>Originally posted by kommish77:
I am going to check into getting a test done, or at least price it! I don't see myself paying .00, but I might pay half of that.

Once I am done running I usually only walk for 2 or 3 minutes (I figure I have already been walking 25 minutes during an hour run) and then stretch for about 5 minutes. Usually at this point my HR is near 100. My MAF is 140, my resting is 70. So within 8 minutes I am below that halfway point. I can continue walking to see how long it takes, if that would help determine something.

Thanks for your help as well.<HR>

Unfortunately, you won't get a treadmill test for $100, or even twice that if it includes someone intelligent who can interpret it and give recommendations. That's what's nice about the 180 formula -- it's extremely accurate for most people. If, by chance, you're not one of those people, you'll know from your second MAF test. In a month's time, training properly, you should be able to run faster at the same heart rate.

Of course, this does not factor in diet and other potential stressors, which can impair aerobic progress despite proper training.

Gregolowe

324 posts since
Jul 6, 2006

822. Sep 20, 2007 1:19 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

What would those dietary stressors be? Does alcohol inhibit aerobic development?

sl8rbrian

5 posts since
Sep 20, 2007

823. Sep 20, 2007 1:22 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

Hello All,

I was hoping to get some constructive feedback on my LHR approach.

I?m 31 years old and have been running 50K?s and will be running my first 50M in November. My MAF would be 149.

My goal is to build a solid base and to get faster.

Current schedule:

Current Average 1 hour min/mi: 10 min/mi

Monday: 1 hour 0-2% incline @ 117 (62% MHR)
Tuesday: 1 hour 0-2% incline @ 117 (62% MHR)
Wednesday: 1 hour 40 minutes -3% to 4% @ 117-123 @ 10:20 min/mi average
Thursday: 1 hour 0-2% incline @ 117 (62% MHR)
Friday: 1 hour 0-2% incline @ 117 (62% MHR)
Saturday: 1 hour 0-2% incline @ 117 (62% MHR)
Sunday: 3-6 hours @ > 149

My Sunday run is my long run where I use my MAF to full potential. My concern is that while I feel energetic during the week and never feel exhausted, am I doing any good at keeping my HR at 117?? Is that to low for my weekly runs and am I wasting time? I mean, I?m sure I can increase my speed by bringing it up to 149 on some of those runs, but am I doing any ?good? by keeping it at 117?

Any feedback would be appreciated!

Brian Harvey

sl8rbrian

5 posts since
Sep 20, 2007

824. Sep 20, 2007 1:31 PM

in response to: formationflier

Re: Basebuilding, low heart rate training, via Maffetone/Mark Allen/Hadd/Mittleman

Whoops, it should be less than 149 for my sunday runs.

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