quote:<HR>Originally posted by cfkid:
I am working toward my first full marathon next May (Flying Pig), and am considering using LHR training for my base building this winter. I have a few questions, in an attempt to help me determine how agressive to get into it.

First, a little background. I'm 36 and have been running for about 2.5 years. I've never been a fast runner, nor do I have a large base at this point. I run about 30 miles per week, and my easy runs are around 10:30. I'd like to build my base during the winter to about 45 miles per week, and peek in the 55+/- range for my full. I've had a few minor injuries preparing for a half in October (achilles injury - which was not running related, and a soleus injury which was).

Over the past few days, I have been re-reading Maffetone's book. This morning, I tried to see if I could stay around a 144 HR. I ended up running 4 miles, with an avg HR of 146. I ended up running about a minute per mile slower than I usually do (11:28/mi to be exact).

I'm wondering if this is a good, bad, or neutral indicator as to my aerobic fitness, or if LHR training will be beneficial to me. Any input on that from the experts here?

Second, if I do go this route, I will probably begin base building in November, and begin serious training for the half in the beginning of January. Obviously, the first month or so would still be considered base building. This would give me about 3 months of LHR training. Would this be enough to get me to a good base? Obviously I realize that this is an experiment of one, so there is no concrete answer.

Third, I realize that there are several theories on LHR training. Most say nothing over the MAF/70%, etc. for at least 8-12 weeks. I typically run a Thanksgiving Day 10k, and would like to this year. Would the recommendation be to just run it and not "race" it? Would one anaerobic race do that much damage 4 weeks into training?
Thanks in advance for any replies.
<HR>

A slower pace the first time out can be shocking (or even depressing) but it's not unusual. The most important thing is to find the best training heart rate. I always prefer a good treadmill test to do this, but that's not easy for most people. Maffetone's 180 formula works well for most, and if it's not correct you'll know within a couple of weeks or so (after your first MAF test or as you time your regular runs).

Building an aerobic base is good for everyone.

Three months of base may be good, but it may not be enough. I like the idea that you build base until your progress slows (or plateaus), especially for a long race. So if you keep getting faster each month, why stop getting faster? The marathon requires a great aerobic system with very little anaerobic input.

If you're reading Maffetone's books you've probably read about some of this.

Hard to say whether one anaerobic effort would hurt you. If you're burned out or injured it certainly could.

CfKid I don't know much about CF and how it effects you physically, but I'm curious as to what the LHR-Experts think regarding whether or not it warrants an adjustment to your MAF.

I.E., should your training pace be 180-36 (144) or should it be reduced slightly (-5?).

This is your first marathon, so I would go with LHR training to build as good an aerobic base as possible. Is 3 months enough? I don't know ... but it is what it is ... and it will help.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by cfkid:
I am working toward my first full marathon next May (Flying Pig), and am considering using LHR training for my base building this winter. I have a few questions, in an attempt to help me determine how agressive to get into it.

First, a little background. I'm 36 and have been running for about 2.5 years. I've never been a fast runner, nor do I have a large base at this point. I run about 30 miles per week, and my easy runs are around 10:30. I'd like to build my base during the winter to about 45 miles per week, and peek in the 55+/- range for my full. I've had a few minor injuries preparing for a half in October (achilles injury - which was not running related, and a soleus injury which was).

Over the past few days, I have been re-reading Maffetone's book. This morning, I tried to see if I could stay around a 144 HR. I ended up running 4 miles, with an avg HR of 146. I ended up running about a minute per mile slower than I usually do (11:28/mi to be exact).

I'm wondering if this is a good, bad, or neutral indicator as to my aerobic fitness, or if LHR training will be beneficial to me. Any input on that from the experts here?

Second, if I do go this route, I will probably begin base building in November, and begin serious training for the half in the beginning of January. Obviously, the first month or so would still be considered base building. This would give me about 3 months of LHR training. Would this be enough to get me to a good base? Obviously I realize that this is an experiment of one, so there is no concrete answer.

Third, I realize that there are several theories on LHR training. Most say nothing over the MAF/70%, etc. for at least 8-12 weeks. I typically run a Thanksgiving Day 10k, and would like to this year. Would the recommendation be to just run it and not "race" it? Would one anaerobic race do that much damage 4 weeks into training?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

<HR>

I would run the race. Unless you are really really aerobically challenged the single 10K shouldn't hurt you much at all. It might even help after quite a few weeks of deep aerobic runs.

Some of my best "maf" runs seem to be after a speed workout which was preceeded by several weeks of easy, aerobic runs. Workouts that pushed my threshold upward, perhaps.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by catwoman73:
Well, I did another MAF test. I knew it wasn't going to be good, with my allergies and all, but I didn't think it would be this bad.

Just to re-cap:

MAF test #1. July 17. 63 degrees, DP 55.
Mile 1 9:38
Mile 2 10:01
Mile 3 10:15
Mile 4 10:32
Mile 5 10:59

MAF test #2. Aug. 14. 52 degrees, DP 48.
Mile 1 9:26
Mile 2 9:43
Mile 3 9:51
Mile 4 9:53
Mile 5 10:02

MAF test #3. Today. 61 degrees, DP 50.
Mile 1 10:27
Mile 2 11:02
Mile 3 11:32
Mile 4 11:36
Mile 5 11:51

Just some other info about me- I'm 34, MAF normally=146, but dropped it to 136 during the worst of my allergy season, while I was taking meds. I've been feeling great for the last two weeks. My allergies are still there, but much improved. I have no injuries or aches and pains of any sort. My diet is excellent 95% of the time (can't go without the occasional chocolate bar!), and I always make sure I'm well hydrated. I've been running just over 1 year, and have been holding steady at 30MPW for the last month, and had planned to start increasing my mileage slowly again once allergy season is over. I've been feeling a little bit tired lately, but I just attributed that to allergies.

I have trouble believing that such a severe deterioration is solely because it is allergy season. I'm worse off now than when I started MAF training!!! I am seeing my doctor this week, and plan to ask for some routine bloodwork to rule out anemia, and any other medical issues that could be causing all of this. Does anyone have any ideas what might be going on? I could really use some help, because I'm finding this terribly depressing.

My plan right now is to continue MAF training for 2-3 more months before adding a little speedwork back in (good idea? bad idea? any thoughts?). Despite my horrid performance on this MAF test, I have to admit, I've seen many other benefits since I've started low HR training. All the aches and pains I had been experiencing are gone, and I've been able to increase my mileage without incurring any new injuries. Ultimately, I do run to stay healthy, and my body has never felt better. Psychologically, though, this deterioration is really tough to take.

Please advise, everyone- I'm feeling a little desperate for some input. Let me know if you all need any more info to help me figure this out.

Thanks!
Pam

<HR>

If you take out the numbers your post sounds like a success story. Unfortunately just about everyone, myself included measures success/progress with numbers.

I've been MAF training for just over a year and I've never taken a true MAF test. Running up against MAF tends to frustrate me. What I do instead is steady runs on my treadmill. I started at 4.5mph for 6 miles. I did that run at least once a week until my average HR was regularly in the mid to high 120's. Then I increased to 5mph and now I'm working in 5.5mph for 5 of the 6 miles.

With my exterior runs I tend to stay in 130 - 135 range for the first half of the run and then I drift up to 135 - 140. A few miles after the drift I start having a harder time controling my HR on the inclines. Exterior runs are, as always dew point permitting.

You had dew points of 55 in July, 48 in August, and 50 in Sept? I am extremely jealous. Today was my first day under 60 and only the third day below 65 since May . Got to love that Texas heat.

Craig

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leitnerj, i'm not sure why you're anti-maf test. maybe a bad experience in school with tests?

you seem to assess yourself, which is an maf test. you just do it in a way that's convenient for you. which is great.

one problem many people have with measuring their daily workout is they may get obsessed. and runners can be very obsessed. there are so many factors that affect pace at a specific heart rate that if you checked yourself everyday and the numbers didn't always improve, you can get crazy. that's why maffetone suggests once a month (or whatever - 3 weeks?).

it's like getting on the scale every morning. there are so many factors that affect your weight and a pound here or there is insignificant but when you see that one pound higher on a given morning, you freak out. (not to mention that most scales just are not that accurate.)

Thanks for the replies.

Craig- I live in southwestern Ontario, so we do have our share of humidity (probably nothing like Texas, though!). However, for my MAF tests, I make sure I get up early enough that the temperature and dew point won't have much of an impact on performance. I've tried really hard to keep things consistent from one test to the next. That will be much easier now that fall is here!

Jesse- just wanted to answer a few of your questions. My goal when starting MAF training was basically to get rid of the nagging little injuries I seemed to always be suffering, and hopefully get a little faster in the process.

I ran my first ever HM in May of this year, and was very happy with my time- 1:56:XX. I wasn't particularly happy with the way I felt at the finish line, though. My left knee and hip hurt so badly, I could barely walk, and had trouble negotiating stairs for about a week. I was completely exhausted as well, and couldn't imagive EVER running a full marathon. My average HR for that race was 157, with a max of 176. The first 9 miles of that race was run at a HR of 155 spot on, and it just spiked up to the high 160s, 170s after that. I can now run 13.1 miles without any pain at all, but it takes me more than 2:30 staying at MAF or lower ( haven't raced a HM since I started MAF, though- not sure what my race times would look like right now, or how I would feel at the end).

So, I guess I've accomplished the part of my goal about reducing injuries, but the part about getting faster is tough to judge, given that I haven't raced. The MAF tests are the best indicator I have right now about whether or not my speed has improved, and they aren't looking so good. Now- if the problem was ONLY with my MAF tests, and my every day runs were going really smoothly, I wouldn't be complaining. I know that a MAF test is really just a snapshot of a particular day and time, and many factors can affect how a run goes on any given day. But all of my runs have been steadily deteriorating since the last week of August. It would be a little bit time consuming to provide data from many of my runs over the last few months, but overall, my average pace has generally slowed by 1:30-2:00/mile across all distances, ALL splits on identical routes have been slower (anywhere from 30sec to 2min slower). Also- see my post on page 35 of this thread for another very weird little trend I've been noticing (post was kinda long- don't want to recap it all in this really long post). HR has been tough to control on most runs longer than 5 miles. My resting HR has been erratic, but generally 6-12 beats higher than normal. To be fair to myself, my allergies were absolutely debilitating for about three weeks- couldn't sleep, even called in sick to work one day because I was not functioning at all (so, yes- for a while, they were preventing me from living a normal life). They have been much better in the last 10 days or so, but by no means are they gone. I'm certain that this has had some impact on my performance, but I find myself wondering- how much impact could allergies possibly have- even if they are severe? Am I just being impatient, and will things improve again once my normal allergy season has ended?

Other questions answered: I do everything in my power to stay below MAF on every single run. I am very strict about it. If I drift higher, I immediately walk slowly until I'm back below MAF. I live in a fairly flat area, but do run some hills- not as much as I should, I'm sure. I do speed up significantly on downhills to keep my HR constant. While I was on vacation, I was running a lot of very steep hills, and actually reached a 5:25min/mile pace for a while on one downhill. I really enjoy running downhill- its nice to speed up now and then!

Weather is very erratic here, and I've run in all sorts of conditions. I'm not going to provide a ton of weather data, but believe me- I've looked very closely at how much weather may have impacted me over the last few weeks vs. late July/ early August If anything, based on weather alone, I should be improving right now, not getting worse.

As for my feeling tired- it really is of concern to me, and that's why I'm seeing my doctor this week to rule out anemia, thyroid issues, etc. I am also seeing him to have a lump on my back looked at, and am hoping it is just a cyst or something else that is benign, but I know the possiblity exists that it could be more serious, and could be part of the reason I've been so tired. Lets hope not.

Anyway, thanks for reading the really long post, and any more insight anyone may have would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, all!

Pam


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Thanks, Jesse. I appreciate the advice. I do plan to continue as is for now. Like I said- I'm really happy with the fact that I'm injury free, and that was my most important goal when I started low HR training. And I figure that if allergies or some other medical problem is at the root of my slow pace, I'll figure that out soon enough. I'll try to keep my frustration in check- not easy for me, as I've never been a very patient person, particularly with myself.

I will try to increase my downhill running as well. My area is fairly flat, but there are some extremely large hills that I've not even attempted yet (not sure why- probably afraid of falling on my face. I have been known to be a little clumsy!), so I'll try some new routes incorporating those hills. The only problem is- I have to get UP these hills first. And they are pretty steep- looks like I'll be doing some walking for a while.

There is a HM right here in town in November. Running it may not be a bad idea to really get an idea of where I am, but I don't want to commit to anything until I'm sure I've got no other health issues holding me back. I'll make that decision within the next month.

Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted.

Pam



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quote:<HR>Originally posted by catwoman73:
Thanks for the replies.

Craig- I live in southwestern Ontario, so we do have our share of humidity (probably nothing like Texas, though!). However, for my MAF tests, I make sure I get up early enough that the temperature and dew point won't have much of an impact on performance. I've tried really hard to keep things consistent from one test to the next. That will be much easier now that fall is here!

Jesse- just wanted to answer a few of your questions. My goal when starting MAF training was basically to get rid of the nagging little injuries I seemed to always be suffering, and hopefully get a little faster in the process.

I ran my first ever HM in May of this year, and was very happy with my time- 1:56:XX. I wasn't particularly happy with the way I felt at the finish line, though. My left knee and hip hurt so badly, I could barely walk, and had trouble negotiating stairs for about a week. I was completely exhausted as well, and couldn't imagive EVER running a full marathon. My average HR for that race was 157, with a max of 176. The first 9 miles of that race was run at a HR of 155 spot on, and it just spiked up to the high 160s, 170s after that. I can now run 13.1 miles without any pain at all, but it takes me more than 2:30 staying at MAF or lower ( haven't raced a HM since I started MAF, though- not sure what my race times would look like right now, or how I would feel at the end).

So, I guess I've accomplished the part of my goal about reducing injuries, but the part about getting faster is tough to judge, given that I haven't raced. The MAF tests are the best indicator I have right now about whether or not my speed has improved, and they aren't looking so good. Now- if the problem was ONLY with my MAF tests, and my every day runs were going really smoothly, I wouldn't be complaining. I know that a MAF test is really just a snapshot of a particular day and time, and many factors can affect how a run goes on any given day. But all of my runs have been steadily deteriorating since the last week of August. It would be a little bit time consuming to provide data from many of my runs over the last few months, but overall, my average pace has generally slowed by 1:30-2:00/mile across all distances, ALL splits on identical routes have been slower (anywhere from 30sec to 2min slower). Also- see my post on page 35 of this thread for another very weird little trend I've been noticing (post was kinda long- don't want to recap it all in this really long post). HR has been tough to control on most runs longer than 5 miles. My resting HR has been erratic, but generally 6-12 beats higher than normal. To be fair to myself, my allergies were absolutely debilitating for about three weeks- couldn't sleep, even called in sick to work one day because I was not functioning at all (so, yes- for a while, they were preventing me from living a normal life). They have been much better in the last 10 days or so, but by no means are they gone. I'm certain that this has had some impact on my performance, but I find myself wondering- how much impact could allergies possibly have- even if they are severe? Am I just being impatient, and will things improve again once my normal allergy season has ended?

Other questions answered: I do everything in my power to stay below MAF on every single run. I am very strict about it. If I drift higher, I immediately walk slowly until I'm back below MAF. I live in a fairly flat area, but do run some hills- not as much as I should, I'm sure. I do speed up significantly on downhills to keep my HR constant. While I was on vacation, I was running a lot of very steep hills, and actually reached a 5:25min/mile pace for a while on one downhill. I really enjoy running downhill- its nice to speed up now and then!

Weather is very erratic here, and I've run in all sorts of conditions. I'm not going to provide a ton of weather data, but believe me- I've looked very closely at how much weather may have impacted me over the last few weeks vs. late July/ early August If anything, based on weather alone, I should be improving right now, not getting worse.

As for my feeling tired- it really is of concern to me, and that's why I'm seeing my doctor this week to rule out anemia, thyroid issues, etc. I am also seeing him to have a lump on my back looked at, and am hoping it is just a cyst or something else that is benign, but I know the possiblity exists that it could be more serious, and could be part of the reason I've been so tired. Lets hope not.

Anyway, thanks for reading the really long post, and any more insight anyone may have would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, all!

Pam


<HR>

What's your weekly mileage base?
Have you been increasing at all?
I always believed that part of endurance training is giving your body something to endure. I have a close friend who does MAF training and never improves, because she keeps her mileage at 12 miles per week.
The important thing in her case is that she is healthy (she's not a racer), and all her nagging injuries disappeared. That was her goal.

--Jimmy

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