quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:

Just hit a new marathon PR today in 3:09:42 on a pretty tough
course. Also during the race, I PRed in 10k, 10 mile, and half
marathon distances along the way! Report is in run and race
reports.

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Congratulations!  I went to look at you report, but they've all disappeared!?  Although your loathe to do it, you might try some speedwork for one of these marathons.  Just a little (like 4 or 5 weeks worth 2-7 weeks out) would go a long way for you I think.

quote:

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Originally posted by leitnerj:

Haha, I understand the theories and I contend that it's
all relative. I took off from running two days before the
marathon, then the day before I ran for 45 minutes instead
my usual hour on the treadmill. Man did I feel fresh, but
not diminished as I have after long tapers.

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I just read an article in Runners World ("the magazine that rehashes the same info over and over, yet makes it seem fresh, like a fresh donut at the new coffee shop on the corner") that about some elites who are cutting the amount of tapering down to keep the fresh feeling. They still taper for two weeks or so, but don't cut the miles so much. Some of them felt like crap when they tapered too much. Or even would get colds. It could be psychological. but whatever the reason some find it helpful to taper less.

(just sipped my coffeeyuckalways wait 30 minutes and at least 3 cookies after using mouthwash before sipping coffee)

When you look back at Bill Rodgers and Joan Benoit Samuelson, they were like you Jesse, barely a taper if any, and yet they excelled to put it lightly. Would either of them perhaps set a world record using modern ideas like tapering? Who knows. One thing is for sure they were runners from the inside out, tough and prodigious in their volume. They created and lived their own running lifestyle, as you have, Jesse. You're doing your own thing, accomplishing some incredible feats of endurance, running lots of races, and you seem to be having a blast. Perhaps you could go out and get a 2:59 on your current fitness with a long taper, maybe not. Focusing on just one race. The question I think is "do you want to give up your lifestyle?" to obtain a certain time. I think someday you'll break the 3:00 barrier just doing what you are doing. When I commented that you are a beginner, I meant it. We both are. 4 years is a beginner. 10 years is not. You have only scratched the surface of your potential.

Personally, I've always tapered because an article told me to do so. Now that I've read an article that suggest cutting a little less, I'll try that. I often feel like crap during a taper, and wonder if I'm short-changing my quality of life during that time, and maybe even the best possible time come race day.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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Well, I've decided to commit to the MAF method for the winter. I ran 16 miles yesterday. On the flats, my pace was 11:10/mile, a large improvement over what it's been in my MAF tests, over a minute. I'm not sure if it was the cold weather or not. Either way, I believe I need to improve my aerobic ability. I've been trying to figure out other ways to train to raise my RQ but don't believe I found what I was looking for. I find the physiological basis for this kind of training sound and convincing and people's progress here is pretty convincing as well. I will not do any MAF tests till I'm fininshed. They just hurt my hips too much for some reason, probably the steady running without the walk breaks I get when I run outside. With my FR 305, I probably don't need to do the MAF tests anyways. I didn't have that before. With the FR I will have a lot more information to work with. I don't believe I gave the method a full shake in the 11 weeks I tried it so I want to give it a solid chance. I may have to socially hibernate for the winter which is a bummer as I was planning on organizing a long fatass with other ultra runners in our area but it can wait till next year. So, thanks for all your help and encouragement.  I may chime in now and again as I see progress. Happy MAF'ing.

quote:

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Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

When you look back at Bill Rodgers and Joan Benoit Samuelson, they were like you Jesse, barely a taper if any, and yet they excelled to put it lightly.

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I was at a clinic once where Rodgers stated that he ran very poorly if he cut his mileage back for more than 3 days before a marathon.

Jesse, you'll get that sub-3, just keep doing what you're doing. Ordinarily I wouldn't advise anyone to train the way you do, but my overriding training principle is, " If it ain't broke, don't fix it. " Especially if you enjoy what you're doing. Good luck to you.

Starting over again....

I've been running for almost a year and have been MAF training (half-assed) since January. My MAF HR is 142. I've come to realize after pouring through this and the two archived threads, that I haven't been doing it right. Up until a couple of weeks ago, I would average around 10 min/mile after a warm-up mile or two. The problem is that I was trying to get close to my MAF HR too soon. My HR was drifting far too often. I though I was doing fine, since my avg HR would be 139-141 over most runs. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of trying to get my HR back under 142. It seems that I haven't really been "maffetone training." As a result, I've had a difficult time breaking the 25 mile/ wk barrier. I haven't been injured...just aches & pains here and there that have caused me to be hesitant to increase my milage.

On my last three runs I started very slow (12-13 min/mile). After a mile or two, I picked up the pace a little. Once warmed up, I'm running 11-12 minute miles. After my 7 miler this morning my avg HR was 134...about 5-7 beats lower than I'm used to. Late in the run, my HR will climb into the upper 130s and sometimes touch 141-142 and come back down a bit. This is a very slow pace, but I'm convinced that this is the way to go. My goal is to increase my milage to 50-60 miles/wk over the winter. Hopefully this slower pace will allow me to do that.

I'll post when I start to see significant progress.  Thanks to everyone who contributes to this thread.

quote:

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Originally posted by bdags:

Starting over again....

I've been running for almost a year and have been MAF training (half-assed) since January. My MAF HR is 142. I've come to realize after pouring through this and the two archived threads, that I haven't been doing it right. Up until a couple of weeks ago, I would average around 10 min/mile after a warm-up mile or two. The problem is that I was trying to get close to my MAF HR too soon. My HR was drifting far too often. I though I was doing fine, since my avg HR would be 139-141 over most runs. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of trying to get my HR back under 142. It seems that I haven't really been "maffetone training." As a result, I've had a difficult time breaking the 25 mile/ wk barrier. I haven't been injured...just aches & pains here and there that have caused me to be hesitant to increase my milage.

On my last three runs I started very slow (12-13 min/mile). After a mile or two, I picked up the pace a little. Once warmed up, I'm running 11-12 minute miles. After my 7 miler this morning my avg HR was 134...about 5-7 beats lower than I'm used to. Late in the run, my HR will climb into the upper 130s and sometimes touch 141-142 and come back down a bit. This is a very slow pace, but I'm convinced that this is the way to go. My goal is to increase my milage to 50-60 miles/wk over the winter. Hopefully this slower pace will allow me to do that.

I'll post when I start to see significant progress. Thanks to everyone who contributes to this thread.

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When I'm not doing an aerobic interval run or an MAF test, I try to construct every run where I'm getting to the top of the range in the last mile or two. My goal is to have an even pace for as long as possible. That usually gets easier to do as time goes by. I always use the first mile or so as warm-up. Here's an example:

12:16 108
11:13 117
11:10 118
11:54 122 (all uphill)
9:49 126 (back down)
11:10 123
10:53 125
11:07 128
11:04 129
11:26 130

average pace after warm-up: 11:06

As you can see, it was a fairly even pace with a touch of slowing in the last mile, mainly due to the upgrade in that last mile. I'll try to do that same HR map for each ten miler. Of course, it is adjusted for less miles and real long runs, still trying to maintain an even pace that brings me to the top of the zone by the last few miles. If all goes well, I'll start to get faster in the last miles using the same HR map more often as I did in this run.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

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