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1150 Views 21 Replies Latest reply: Dec 22, 2007 12:56 PM by runawayjesse RSS 1 2 Previous Next
ca marathoner Rookie 13 posts since
Jul 10, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Jul 10, 2007 10:08 PM

Lydiard training for marathon

If you were training for one marathon per year. Any suggestions on setting up the calendar year using each phase.

  • Nobby063 Rookie 630 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Dec 22, 2007 12:56 PM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    quote:


    Originally posted by ca marathoner:

    If you were training for one marathon per year. Any suggestions on setting up the calendar year using each phase.


     



    I was secretly hoping someone would post first so I won't make a fool out of myself...

    It very much depends... Are you a 2:20 guy seeking for a break-through or a 4:20 guy who just wants to run a marathon? Are you a seasoned veteran who's been running last 20 years or a novice who just started running 2 months ago? Are you a serious runner who traines 90~110 miles a week and wants to run only one marathon a year so you can absolutely peak for it or a recreational runnr who trains 30 miles a week and just don't have time to train for 3 marathons a year? I guess the first question would be; why one a year? And are you planning on doing that for the next 5 years or just this year?

    [http://This message has been edited by Nobby (edited Jul-11-2007).|http://This message has been edited by Nobby (edited Jul-11-2007).]

  • runninirish Amateur 222 posts since
    Feb 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Jul 14, 2007 7:29 AM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    I have trained for 2 marathons (succesfully) using Lydiard's methods...I topped out at 70-ish mpw...Lydiard calls for base miles for "as long as possible", I typically ran a good 4 months of just base miles before I started his program...the phases went like this for me:
    4 weeks: hill training 3 hill workouts per week (I actually figured out the proper way to do these by the 2nd marathon...paid off big)
    4 weeks: anaerobic (these were the longer 800-1500 repititions)
    4 weeks: co-ordination phase (lots of time trials)
    2 weeks: freshen up/taper

    Every phase had a 2+ hr run on the weekend and 2 90 min runs during the week....I typically took 1 day off every 2 weeks or so....good luck, I love training the Lydiard way...

    ----



    "Fortitudine vincimus"

  • runawayjesse Rookie 538 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Jul 14, 2007 7:44 AM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    quote:


    Originally posted by runninirish:

    I have trained for 2 marathons (succesfully) using Lydiard's methods...I topped out at 70-ish mpw...Lydiard calls for base miles for "as long as possible", I typically ran a good 4 months of just base miles before I started his program...the phases went like this for me:
    4 weeks: hill training 3 hill workouts per week (I actually figured out the proper way to do these by the 2nd marathon...paid off big)
    4 weeks: anaerobic (these were the longer 800-1500 repititions)
    4 weeks: co-ordination phase (lots of time trials)
    2 weeks: freshen up/taper

    Every phase had a 2+ hr run on the weekend and 2 90 min runs during the week....I typically took 1 day off every 2 weeks or so....good luck, I love training the Lydiard way...


     




    Thats a good breakdown. may I ask, during the coordination phase when you did lots of time trials-what exactly did you do? During track training it makes sense to go out once per week run a trial over the race distance than work on weakneses. But you couldn't do 26 miles at goal pace every weekend so I was always confused on that.

  • runawayjesse Rookie 538 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Jul 14, 2007 7:46 AM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    quote:


    Originally posted by ca marathoner:

    If you were training for one marathon per year. Any suggestions on setting up the calendar year using each phase.


     



    Got the book "run with the best" by Benson and Ray. They have a pretty decent interpertation of a Lydiard marathon plan. I hope Nobby can comment on that.

  • Nobby063 Rookie 630 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Dec 22, 2007 12:56 PM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    Okay, so you're a hard-core guy with a very respectful marathon time.  My suggestion to you, if you want to run one marathon a year; is to divide the year into two and work on your 5k, 10k, half marathon cycle for the first part of the year and then work on the marathon for the second cycle.  I've read recently in Seko's book that he believed improving 10000m time was crutial to his marathon preparation because simply, if you can run 30 minutes for 10k instead of 32, then the overall quality of your marathon training would improve.  Again, this depends on the individual but; I'd say start some basic build-up now (June, July, August), do some road races and/or cross countries in the fall (September, October); start marathon preparation including build-up (November, December, January); marathon specific training (February, March) then Boston???  You can do it other way around and shoot for October (Chicago) or NY (November) but for that, you would need to do long marathon specific training throughout the summer and, if you're not the summer kind of a guy, it could be tough. 

    Depending on how much time you have between shorter races till marathon, and depending on how you react to different types of training, you might want to shuffle what to do and how you do it and how long. For example, if you're a light guy (in general but not exclusively), you are more likely to retain your aerobic development; so you may even start marathon specific type of workouts only a month or so after you're done with shorter races. On the other hand, if you feel you seem to lose that aerobic conditioning after going through some tough road/track races; you would want to have a month or two of extra between them and the marathon to get your condition back up again.

    Because marathoning is primarily aerobic activity, I would be a bit careful with anaerobic phase. You can even use those shorter races for anaerobic development. In fact, in later years, Arthur himself prefered useing road/track races (5k and 10k) as a part of anaerobic development workout for marathon runners.

    Time trials may be a misleading term particularly for marathon program; but those 3/4 effort long distance workouts for Lydiard marathon program are quite important.  Regardless of the frequency, this is pretty much a core of marathon specific training program.  Japanese marathon runenrs would do 3 or 4 or 5 "tempo" type of runs of anywhere from 25k to 40k throughtout the program.  Lydiard schedule, I believe, has 1518 milers at 1/23/4 effort quite frequently.  Now, you've got to remember, this is a schedule for someone who had completed 10 weeks of 100MPW and 4 weeks of hill training.  If you're not as "tough", you'd want to go a bit easier.  Otherwise, they simply become glorified distance work and your effort may not be in it.

    For someone of your caliber, I don't care about the last long run before the marathon; it would become the last tempo/time trial before the marathon (Lydiard actually used to have a marathon time trial a month before; then later 25k about 3 weeks before).  You might want to consider doing something like 25~30k almost close to the marathon pace 2 to 3 weeks before the marathon as a dress rehearsal.  It should not be done too fast, but it should be done at a very good clipcertainly, it ain't "3-hour run at easy pace" for a 4-hour marathon guy.  <br /><br />Whether you want to have another long run(s) after that or not depends on how you do it.  Either way, you want to toe the start line feeling a bit heavy.  Marathon is all about getting that 100% readiness somewhere around 30k into the race.  That means you want to be 90% sharp at the start coming up.  If you're 90% ready coming down, that means you've already had the peak.  If you feel light and sharp at the start; that, most likely, means you ARE at your 100% and you'll use up your best form in the first 15 miles.  You feel great and stay with the leader; but you'd run out of the gas in the final 10 miles.  And this would happen if you feel good 2 weeks before and set your course PR in your final trial and still feeling strong.  You need to "put the cap on" by going for a long run.  If you feel a bit heavy doing this final trial, depending on how far this trial is, trial itself might sharpen you.  If not, you might want to consider doing a 5k race or 5000m time trial on track a week or so before.  <br /><br />You know how that feelsto fly the entire long distance!  It's all about this peaking.  You cannot "cheat" or "fake" it in the marathon.  You need to learn for yourself what the winning combination is. 

    Now, so I recommended two-cycle program; it's simply because, I feel, way too many people stick with long plod for too long and that wouldn't benefit too much; and you would most likely benefit by improving your 10k time. However, just one last comment; when I talked to Chris Pilone, the coach of Olympic champion triathlete, Hamish Carter, he said Carter had his best season when he did one-cycle-a-year program. I asked him how he adjusted it; and he simply said, "We just doubled the build-up." But remember, he had been doing lots of "cycles" and competitons for several years. I would still recommend doing a two-cycle program for a couple of years and test yourself a bit before you consider one-cycle program.

    If you thought what I said interesting and have some more specific quiestions, feel free to write to me.

    Good luck!

    [http://This message has been edited by Nobby (edited Jul-14-2007).|http://This message has been edited by Nobby (edited Jul-14-2007).]

  • Nobby063 Rookie 630 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Jul 14, 2007 12:51 PM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    quote:


    Originally posted by runawayjesse:

    Got the book "run with the best" by Benson and Ray. They have a pretty decent interpertation of a Lydiard marathon plan. I hope Nobby can comment on that.


     



    Yeah, one of the best books I've read.  But I haven't checked their marathon plan for a long long time so I'd need to go back and check it out again.

  • runninirish Amateur 222 posts since
    Feb 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Jul 14, 2007 2:26 PM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    quote:


    Originally posted by Nobby:

      You might want to consider doing something like 25~30k almost close to the marathon pace 2 to 3 weeks before the marathon as a dress rehearsal.  It should not be done too fast, but it should be done at a very good clipcertainly, it ain't "3-hour run at easy pace" for a 4-hour marathon guy.  <br /><br />.][/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><br /><br />I love the Lydiard book I read...next to this 25-30k run 3 weeks out, it simply said "fast".... God love him...<br /><br />Most of the time trials I ran were 3k's, 5k's, and 10k's...<br /><br />--



    "Fortitudine vincimus"

  • Nobby063 Rookie 630 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Jul 14, 2007 2:31 PM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    quote:


    Originally posted by runninirish:

    I love the Lydiard book I read...next to this 25-30k run 3 weeks out, it simply said "fast"....  God love him...

    Most of the time trials I ran were 3k's, 5k's, and 10k's...




    3~10k time trials may be benefitial for sharpening for the marathon but may not be enough for marathon specific workout.

    I'm not sure about "God love him" part...  I have a feeling he's arguing God up there...assuming he's up there! ;o)

  • runawayjesse Rookie 538 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Dec 22, 2007 12:56 PM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    quote:


    Originally posted by Nobby:

    Okay, so you're a hard-core guy with a very respectful marathon time. My suggestion to you, if you want to run one marathon a year; is to divide the year into two and work on your 5k, 10k, half marathon cycle for the first part of the year and then work on the marathon for the second cycle. I've read recently in Seko's book that he believed improving 10000m time was crutial to his marathon preparation because simply, if you can run 30 minutes for 10k instead of 32, then the overall quality of your marathon training would improve. Again, this depends on the individual but; I'd say start some basic build-up now (June, July, August), do some road races and/or cross countries in the fall (September, October); start marathon preparation including build-up (November, December, January); marathon specific training (February, March) then Boston??? You can do it other way around and shoot for October (Chicago) or NY (November) but for that, you would need to do long marathon specific training throughout the summer and, if you're not the summer kind of a guy, it could be tough.

    Depending on how much time you have between shorter races till marathon, and depending on how you react to different types of training, you might want to shuffle what to do and how you do it and how long. For example, if you're a light guy (in general but not exclusively), you are more likely to retain your aerobic development; so you may even start marathon specific type of workouts only a month or so after you're done with shorter races. On the other hand, if you feel you seem to lose that aerobic conditioning after going through some tough road/track races; you would want to have a month or two of extra between them and the marathon to get your condition back up again.

    Because marathoning is primarily aerobic activity, I would be a bit careful with anaerobic phase. You can even use those shorter races for anaerobic development. In fact, in later years, Arthur himself prefered useing road/track races (5k and 10k) as a part of anaerobic development workout for marathon runners.

    Time trials may be a misleading term particularly for marathon program; but those 3/4 effort long distance workouts for Lydiard marathon program are quite important.  Regardless of the frequency, this is pretty much a core of marathon specific training program.  Japanese marathon runenrs would do 3 or 4 or 5 "tempo" type of runs of anywhere from 25k to 40k throughtout the program.  Lydiard schedule, I believe, has 1518 milers at 1/23/4 effort quite frequently.  Now, you've got to remember, this is a schedule for someone who had completed 10 weeks of 100MPW and 4 weeks of hill training.  If you're not as "tough", you'd want to go a bit easier.  Otherwise, they simply become glorified distance work and your effort may not be in it.

    For someone of your caliber, I don't care about the last long run before the marathon; it would become the last tempo/time trial before the marathon (Lydiard actually used to have a marathon time trial a month before; then later 25k about 3 weeks before).  You might want to consider doing something like 25~30k almost close to the marathon pace 2 to 3 weeks before the marathon as a dress rehearsal.  It should not be done too fast, but it should be done at a very good clipcertainly, it ain't "3-hour run at easy pace" for a 4-hour marathon guy.  <br /><br />Whether you want to have another long run(s) after that or not depends on how you do it.  Either way, you want to toe the start line feeling a bit heavy.  Marathon is all about getting that 100% readiness somewhere around 30k into the race.  That means you want to be 90% sharp at the start coming up.  If you're 90% ready coming down, that means you've already had the peak.  If you feel light and sharp at the start; that, most likely, means you ARE at your 100% and you'll use up your best form in the first 15 miles.  You feel great and stay with the leader; but you'd run out of the gas in the final 10 miles.  And this would happen if you feel good 2 weeks before and set your course PR in your final trial and still feeling strong.  You need to "put the cap on" by going for a long run.  If you feel a bit heavy doing this final trial, depending on how far this trial is, trial itself might sharpen you.  If not, you might want to consider doing a 5k race or 5000m time trial on track a week or so before.  <br /><br />You know how that feelsto fly the entire long distance!  It's all about this peaking.  You cannot "cheat" or "fake" it in the marathon.  You need to learn for yourself what the winning combination is. 

    Now, so I recommended two-cycle program; it's simply because, I feel, way too many people stick with long plod for too long and that wouldn't benefit too much; and you would most likely benefit by improving your 10k time. However, just one last comment; when I talked to Chris Pilone, the coach of Olympic champion triathlete, Hamish Carter, he said Carter had his best season when he did one-cycle-a-year program. I asked him how he adjusted it; and he simply said, "We just doubled the build-up." But remember, he had been doing lots of "cycles" and competitons for several years. I would still recommend doing a two-cycle program for a couple of years and test yourself a bit before you consider one-cycle program.

    If you thought what I said interesting and have some more specific quiestions, feel free to write to me.

    Good luck!

    [http://This message has been edited by Nobby (edited Jul-14-2007).|http://This message has been edited by Nobby (edited Jul-14-2007).]




    This must be the best post I have read on coolrunning.

    A few questions if I may Nobby-
    Do you feel it's better to train for two different distances per year like 10k in the spring and marathon in the fall as opposed to marathon in the spring and fall(2 per uear)? If so how do you feel about following something like the race week non race week schedules for one season rather than going through all the phases?

    I'm not looking to steal this thread but since the subject came up perhaps you can offer some advice on my goals. I'm looking to spend the next few years primarly building my aerobic system. i'm looking for more of a balance in this building not so interested in "peaking" for anything. My initial thought is training for 2 marathons per year slowly pushing up volume and using just small doses of anaerobic work per season. I'm starting to think that perhaps 1 marathon per year(fall) and maybe a few races in the spring instead might be a better balance. I would rather keep up the volume so I'm not interested in following the whole cycle during the spring(anaerobic, sharpening etc..)so I thought a spring season of just 5-10k races might offer something better than just training 2 seasons of marathons. Other than recovery periods I want the volume to remain consistant.

    thoughts

  • tuscaloosarunner Rookie 726 posts since
    Apr 7, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Jul 14, 2007 4:55 PM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    Nobby,

    Agree w/ Jesse: great thread.

    Another hijack attempt: I know many elites and sub-elites do shorter races in the Spring, a track season in the Summer, and a Fall marathon. OR: Mary in Spring, summer track, and Fall XC/roads.


    How does the periodization there work: are these guys going for 3 peaks, or are they using one season as build-up for another two peak year???

  • Nobby063 Rookie 630 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Jul 15, 2007 4:36 PM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    quote:


    Originally posted by runawayjesse:

    This must be the best post I have read on coolrunning.

    A few questions if I may Nobby-
    Do you feel it's better to train for two different distances per year like 10k in the spring and marathon in the fall as opposed to marathon in the spring and fall(2 per uear)? If so how do you feel about following something like the race week non race week schedules for one season rather than going through all the phases?

    I'm not looking to steal this thread but since the subject came up perhaps you can offer some advice on my goals. I'm looking to spend the next few years primarly building my aerobic system. i'm looking for more of a balance in this building not so interested in "peaking" for anything. My initial thought is training for 2 marathons per year slowly pushing up volume and using just small doses of anaerobic work per season. I'm starting to think that perhaps 1 marathon per year(fall) and maybe a few races in the spring instead might be a better balance. I would rather keep up the volume so I'm not interested in following the whole cycle during the spring(anaerobic, sharpening etc..)so I thought a spring season of just 5-10k races might offer something better than just training 2 seasons of marathons. Other than recovery periods I want the volume to remain consistant.

    thoughts


     



    Runawayjesse:

    Glad you liked it. I was just BSing! ;o)

    In regards to training for two (or more) different events; there are two ways to look at it. If you're coordinating for, say, a mile, it would not be a good idea to gauge your potential in, say, 10000m or a half marathon because you're focusing on something very different.

    On the other hand, one of the characteristics of the Lydiard program, as you know, is that you'd be doing "almost" the same thing up until very much later stage of the program. You'd be doing high mileage aerobic developing regardless of your event being a mile or a 10000m; you'd still be doing hill resistane workouts just the same and, almost to the point, you'd be doing the same "types" of anaerobic development workouts. There will be individual differences and you may prefer shorter, faster repeats vs. longer, slower reps; or bounding vs. hill running, etc. But you still all need the same elements developed to the maximum. So depending on what event you decide to compete in, majority of your program would remain pretty much the same. Someone who did it very well is Bill Baillie. He, if I remember it correctly, took every NZ title from 800m up to 10000m, including XC. He was the master of sharpening. He knew how to sharpen up really well. And I would bet his basic training upto track schedule, or better yet, coordination, would be pretty much the same.

    Now, race-week/non-race-week is a bit different. And now I can sort of see your argument in the other thread. With this program, you will be doing pretty much the same mixture of training (various of "paces" all in the same weekly program more or less). This is, as you know, what Assuies like Deek or Monegetty would do. And as did Shorter and Rodgers. But the thing is; it does not mean they would be doing the same thing (effort) week after week, year-round. During tte "off" season, I'm sure their pace will be slower, recovery could be more and numbers of reps less, etc. I had a chance to talk to Dr. Dick Telford, the exercise physiologist from Australian Institure of Sports who advised Deek and Lisa Martin (Ondieki), among others. He didn't like the idea of the Australian "Complex System" being referred as "same trainng week-in, week-out". "There are fluctuation of volume and effort throughout the year," he said. In other words, it is possible, by employing this type of program, to gradually increase volume AND intensity throughout the year; one year to the next. So, in other words, if you're not looking to peak in the next couple of years, this type of program may work really well.

    The only caustion I might have is; you see, the argument Lydiard would have had is, once you start doing anaerobic training, you need to stick with it; because, if you stop doing it, you'll lose that development.  Also, during the period of time when you are trying to develop your aerobic capacity to maximum, if you introduce anaerobic training, it would most likely reduce the volume which is one of the most important elements in developing aerobic capacity.  So....as long as you understand when you'll be doing what; in other words, you shouldn' just jump to some sort of sporadic program, blasting around the track, or wherever you decide to do your anaerobic intervals, when there's no race in sight.  With two or three years of gradual development in sight, it might work really well.

  • Nobby063 Rookie 630 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Jul 15, 2007 4:43 PM (in response to ca marathoner)
    Re: Lydiard training for marathon

    quote:


    Originally posted by tuscaloosarunner:

    Nobby,

    Agree w/ Jesse: great thread.

    Another hijack attempt: I know many elites and sub-elites do shorter races in the Spring, a track season in the Summer, and a Fall marathon. OR: Mary in Spring, summer track, and Fall XC/roads.


    How does the periodization there work: are these guys going for 3 peaks, or are they using one season as build-up for another two peak year???


     



    Tusca:

    It would all depends. For example, let's say you're a college runner and would like to focus on 800/1500. You can easily structure your year with XC, indoor and outdoor with priority or emphasis slightly different however. The problem occurs when you try to peak at your best for ALL of them. XC can be used for strength building, as Bowerman used to do. Or indoor races can be used for sharpening.

    In the case with Japanese program, it's a bit better because their seasons would be, in most cases, fall Ekien, winter/spring maraton and summer track.  Ekiden distances are usually around 20k (for men and shorter for women).  Marathon preparation can easily be used for endurace/stamina building for summer track.  Or, on the other side of the coin, track races can be used, as Seko did, for sharpening for marathons.  It all depends on what your emphasis would be.  Agan, problem could occur when you try to get all of them, do well in everything.  You may be able to.  But I would not necessarily recommend it;

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