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109 Replies Last post: Nov 11, 2005 12:04 PM by bigapplepie   Go to original post 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 Previous Next
Click to view obsessor's profile Legend 488 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
75. Feb 23, 2004 10:47 AM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
I think I'm caught. Simply, I find this site entertaining, but sometimes things slow down and it's nice to kick things up a bit no matter how clumsy my effort is. And, yes, I can afford to think in very simple terms on this subject. There are people who devote themselves to this kind of research - I don't have the time to match that mental horsepower - so why not sit back and let others do the work for me, and simply glean from that. Same with Boston. I wanted the good and the bad all together. I got exactly that.
Click to view Paul Davies's profile Amateur 13 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
76. Mar 3, 2004 3:30 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
So i suppose Americans, Japanese and Cubans have a baseball gene hanging around their genome as they are very good at it compared to the rest of the world (or is it they are the only ones who play it?)
Americans are also blessed with American football gene but there is a sex-linkage deletion in the (real) football (soccor) gene as females have it whereas males lack it.
Australians are blessed with a superb cricket gene whereas the West Indian nations have amazingly lost this gene since the 1980's
As African nations show very poorly in swimming events, white Americans can be happy in the knowledge that the swimming gene can compensate for the lack of this running gene that the Africans unfairly have.
Click to view Paul Davies's profile Amateur 13 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
77. Mar 4, 2004 3:01 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
You are effectively postulating that the presence of absence of a genetic advantage in running hinges on the presence or absence of a single identifiable gene. This complete lack of insight into molecular biology renders both your post and its detailed refutation pointless.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Ha, you are funny although very humourless! To have a genetic trait then yes by definition genes are involved, whether people are born with or without gene(s) or have polymorphisms in those genes that help a person achieve high levels of althletic ability.
My point is that ability in sport depends on so many factors no one at this point in time can say Kenyans have a genetic predispostion to running. A simple search on Medline shows so many factors are involved in ability to perform well at sport, genetical, physiological and in the case of baseball, pharacological.
The reason africans do not have good swimmers is because of the lack of swimming facilities and not because they have a gene to stop them from swimming. Running can be a persons only means of transport so can become very effective runners when it is performed all their life.
Click to view Paul Davies's profile Amateur 13 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
78. Mar 4, 2004 3:52 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
This complete lack of insight into molecular biology renders both your post and its detailed refutation pointless.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I think all of us are thankful of your wonderful insights into molecular biology. You are right, as an electrophysiologist i do struggle in molecular biology and hate making single point mutations in the cDNA that i work with.
Anyhow, back to running. As a graduate in physiology (a few years ago now) and a keen runner i love this stuff on human physiology and performance and I would love to have you suggest a few peer-reviewed publications on this subject as i can find only a few papers on this subject of genetics and gifted sportsman. Maybe a simple review to get me started then a few papers.
If you could post this information then maybe we could all read them and have a more equal discussion as at the moment your insightful knowledge leads to one sided arguements. After reading the papers we could all have a more informed debate or maybe we will all be persuaded by the scientific studies that we will all agree with you and that there will be no debate. Oh happy days!
Click to view jmoleary's profile Pro 71 posts since
Sep 29, 2007
79. Dec 22, 2007 1:21 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Paul Davies:
My point is that ability in sport depends on so many factors no one at this point in time can say Kenyans have a genetic predispostion to running. A simple search on Medline shows so many factors are involved in ability to perform well at sport, genetical, physiological and in the case of baseball, pharacological. <HR>


I don't know anything about genetics or molecular biology, and I will admit up front that I have not been following this conversation. But I think the examples you used don't make your point very well. Ability in sport depends on many factors, yes, but much less so in a sport like running than in the examples you used.

You don't need expensive facilities or complicated equipment to become a good runner. Just shoes and some simple clothes. Yet swimming requires pools. Usually indoor ones. Baseball requires gloves, bats, balls, teammates, complicated rules and motions. Ditto for Cricket. Much more so for football, which also requires pads, helmets, fields, etc.

And the more complicated the sport, the more factors go into making for success. Success at baseball can be influenced by any of a dozen different physical skills, intelligence, alertness quality of coaching, etc. Football too. And you have reliance upon your teammates. Your ability to hit a home run depends on the pitcher you face. Your ability to catch the winning touchdown depends on the skill of your quarterback. Swimming does not fall into this category but it still have the facilities problem and is certainly more complicated than running.

Finally there is the cultural factor. Baseball, football and cricket are not very popular outside of a few countries. But running is **** near universal. We've all done it as children, regardless of where we lived.

Running is one of the most basic of all sports. The motions are fundamental and uncomplicated -- more so than almost any sport out there. There's not a whole lot of technique involved, no complicated motions to master. There is no ball to have to worry about or teammate to rely upon. It has been practiced longer than any other sport in the history of the world and has a single, objective, measure of success - your time -- which allows for comparison even across decades.

No doubt the other sports you mentioned have a big genetic component, but in running I think it can be distilled much better simply due to the nature of the sport.



http://This message has been edited by JoeO (edited Mar-04-2004).
Click to view Paul Davies's profile Amateur 13 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
80. Mar 4, 2004 6:56 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
Joe,

I am sorry, i was just being sarcastic. But it seems we are in agreement. My point is that in the west we have a wealth of sports that people take part in whereas in Africa there is less to distract the serious runner. People who are top of there game in other sports are so because of their determination and skills developed over decades of practice to name just 2 factors. Nations that become world champions and dominate a particular sport do so for many reasons and not just because they are genetically blessed.
Click to view hopper3011's profile Legend 317 posts since
Feb 27, 2001
81. Mar 4, 2004 11:23 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
Paul Davies,
Firstly, whether or not you are an "electrophysiologist" and work daily with DNA samples is irrelevant here. Cows make milk, but I have yet to meet one that could explain how.

Secondly, since you demand proof of my position, that running ability is genetic, why don't you start the ball rolling? Provide some papers, even perhaps a simple review which proves your position, that talent has no genetic basis.
At the very least, the statistical foundation upon which my opinion is based is solid fact, unlike the dubious rhetoric of your post.

Thirdly, the sports from which you are attempting to draw parellels are, as JoeO pointed out, "learned skill" sports as opposed to the "innate" sport of running. For each of the sports you mention, the athlete is obliged to learn, either by direct instruction or mimicry, to kick, hit or swim. These skills have been shown to be enhanced by early exposure to the necessary movements (Andre Agassi and Tiger Woods are two examples of this phenomenon). It is therefore statistically likely that the best baseball player ever will never play the game, because he has not been exposed to it.
In addition, your examples are team sports whereby the outcome relies as much upon the skills and abilities of your teammates as your own. Eric Cantona may or may not be the epitome of genetic soccer perfection, however had he not signed for Manchester United in 1992, thereby finding 12 other men with talents to match his own, and a coach able to bring the pieces to a cohesive whole, he would not have earned the nickname "God".
Running is an "innate" sport, you don't have to learn how to do it (although you can learn to do it "better"), and therefore uniquely suited to the supposition that genetics is a leading factor in how good a person can be. Simply put, you can either run fast or you can't. The widely differing life experiences of the world's top endurance running athletes (a surprisingly large proportion of them Kenyan, given the country's small population) must show you that.
Therefore, in the search for common factors amongst the top athletes, if relentless training since birth is discounted (which it must be, considering that, amongst other examples, the 5-time World Cross-Country Champion and current marathon world record holder did not begin to train as a runner until he joined the Kenyan Airforce at 18), diet is discounted (go to Nairobi, count the McDonald's, etc. I am sure that they still eat well in the small villages, but not all the good runners come from the small villages). All of the old wive's tales can be similarly discredited, except genetics.

Fourthly, evidently genetics is not the entire story (I certainly have not claimed that). A man born with no legs may have the perfect genetic make-up to run a 25 minute 10k, but, guess what, he ain't gonna. However, his sons or daughters may be able to take advantage of the good genes which he can pass along. This fact is well accepted in Thoroughbred racing circles, as can be seen by the fact that someone just shelled out $4.5 million for a son of Fusaichi Pegasus. The reasons for the reluctance to accept the obvious conclusion, that genetics is an important factor for humans, has more to do with societal pressures than cold hard logic.
To complete the example, showing that physical correctness is important, the expensive son of the 2000 Kentucky Derby winner underwent endoscopic and ultrasonographic inspection of this lungs, an ultrasonogram of his heart and radiographs of every joint in his body, including his cervical vertebrae, prior to his new owner slapping down the cash.

Fifthly, the idea that Africans have only running for sport is frankly ludicrous. The last time I was in Kenya, reading the Sports section of the newspaper I noticed a professional soccer league, a professional cricket league, a professional golf tour, a professional rugby league (Kenya sent a team to the World Sevens), tennis tournaments, even fishing tournaments. Kids play the quintessentially American sport of basketball. Sadly, most Americans are willing to listen to rubbish and believe it quite readily.
Why don't you actually go and experience these countries, before trying to tell us how the people there live?

In the search for an "explanation" for athletic excellence every commonly proffered reason can be discounted by exception (which is not to say that they play no part, only that they are reduced in value every time an exception rears its head) except genetics. The simple fact is that the great proportion of the wourld's "talented" endurance athletes come from a small and genetically isolated area.
Blather on about "determination" and "skills developed over decades" (incidentally, how does Eliud Kipchoge fit there, when he won the 5,000 last summer, he hadn't been even been alive for two decades), you are only fooling yourself.
Click to view hopper3011's profile Legend 317 posts since
Feb 27, 2001
82. Mar 5, 2004 10:42 AM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
Paul Davies,
If you don't like sarcasm then, read the entire thread, don't reiterate the same opinion with which the thread was started and been put through two further iterations by two other posters (both of whom actually contributed meaningfully to the discussion, unlike yourself) within the last five pages, bring something new to the discussion and (most importantly) don't start in a sarcastic tone yourself. If your first post to this thread was not a lame attempt at sarcasm, it was an even lamer attempt at satire.
Your brother has been to Africa. Well, I take back everything I said, obviously you have firsthand knowledge.
I have seen plenty of Americans abroad. Do you know the best place to find an American in Paris? (This is Paris, the gastronomic capital of the world, the City of Lights, home of the Louvre, Les Tuileries, the Bois de Boulogne, Notre Dame. Not Paris, Kentucky.)
In the McDonalds on the Champs Elysee.
I doubt very much that your brother left the protective coccon of the nearest Big Mac box for long enough to actually see the country. You say he spent time in South Africa. Does he speak Xhosa or Zulu? Perhaps Bantu or Sutu? I have found a useful middle ground in Africaans, it is not a native tongue for either party, so ideas get articulated more slowly.

quote:<HR>My brother has also noted that Kenyans tend to be more driven than the other Africans he's met. The people of Botswana were at the other extreme and tended to drive him nuts with how relaxed they were about nearly everything.<HR>


Given that Gaborone and Nairobi are about as far apart as Washington DC and Tegusigalpa, I fail to see the connection (unless you have found Hondurans to be the paradigm of efficiency).
Oh wait, I see, they are both African nations so they can be fairly contrasted.

Leaving aside the pre-concieved notions and vast generalities of your post (I will admit to being guilty of the same offence re. Americans abroad), please explain how this quality of "driven"-ness has been proven to be in any way related to excellence in endurance sports?
Given that Botswana, in terms of general wealth far outstrips Kenya (per capita GDP is nearly 9 times that of Kenya's), the lazy buggers must be doing something?
Perhaps the fact that Botswana has one of the highest HIV infection rates in the world is the reason that they haven't produced many good athletes, not the general laid-backness of the entire country?
You are obviously a well educated person, add something to the conversation. I would be delighted to continue discussion of the subject.
Click to view Paul Davies's profile Amateur 13 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
83. Mar 5, 2004 11:16 AM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
I put my hands up in surrender now and admit that I only talked about team sports and national genetics in a flippant manner, as I do not believe one nation has genes that allow its people to dominant a sport. Genes are important but so too are other factors. It is a fascinating topic but I agree with you all in that I was changing the subject somewhat. However, there are examples that one person in a team can make a huge difference but that is a different subject.
As for running being ?innate? I am indifferent on that one. Yes, if we can move around then we can most likely run. However, running in some races I am deafened by the clomping sound of some people and I know a lot of running partners who have injury after injury mainly because of their running form. I am not the best of runners but I constantly work on my form and I would say it takes many years of hard work to develop and maintain a good running posture that helps prevent injuries. When at school I was always last in running events even though I was a fairly good competitive swimmer. I simple did not know how to run. Several years ago I took up running and read a lot of books on the subject and was coached on my stride, now I am a sub 3-hour marathon runner (when I race). The difference being my will to run, coaching and training. My physiology was changed by 15 years of competitive swimming which helps in my running. This is activity induced change in my expression of genes allowing me to cope with high intensity work outs and which will not be handed down to my children. I suppose we will have to wait and see if the current crop of world-record Kenyan runners will have fast world-record off-spring.

Kemibe: we are talking of human bodies not celestial bodies. I am not looking for one gene; all I am saying is that one nations dominance in a sport is not entirely down to genetics. Elite runners are selected; they may have a genetic or polymorphic advantage over the general population as a whole whether it is in Africa, Europe, America or Pluto. And yes, it sounds like we all kind of agree with one another but just arguing over semantics.

Hopper3011: When someone postulates a theory it is normal to include proof of that theory. Hence, I asked for that data behind your theory and you did not show any. You mentioned you had ?statistical foundations?. I am really sorry I missed this statistical analysis you provided before, please can you post this again or refer me to your post. Let me make this clear, I am not out to get anyone, I am just very very interested in this subject and as a professional scientist I like to learn new subjects but theory has to be backed up by fact. You may be right and it is all entirely down to genetics but I would love to know if this is true. As for my ?dubious rhetoric? I don?t think it is necessary to insult someone who wants to know more about a subject. Anyhow, I swallowed the bate and did a very quick search on published data. I HOPE YOU ARE KIND ENOUGH TO DO THE SAME WITH THE DATA YOU HAVE FOUND! Please do not respond if all you can do is insult me.

The following review and papers are very interesting and should be used in our discussion. They do not prove or disprove the argument but at least they are studies on the subjects that we are discussing and hence are data not some persons mind beliefs. Further reading can be had by reading the references in the back of each paper.

Kenyan dominance in distance running. Larsen HB. Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol. 2003 Sep;136(1):161-70.
Conclusion: In addition to having the proper genes to shape their bodies and thereby contributing to a good running economy, the Kenyan elite runners have trained effectively and used their potential to be in the upper range both in regard to VO(2max) and to a high utilization of this capacity during endurance running.
This is a review, obviously one up for the genetic theory but also points out the training effects!

Training and bioenergetic characteristics in elite male and female Kenyan runners. Billat V, Lepretre PM, Heugas AM, Laurence MH, Salim D, Koralsztein JP. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Feb;35(2):297-304; discussion 305-6.
Conclusion: The velocity at the VO2max is the main factor predicting the variance of the 10-km performance both in men and women, and high-intensity training contributes to this higher VO2max among men.

Morphology, enzyme activities and buffer capacity in leg muscles of Kenyan and Scandinavian runners. Saltin B, Kim CK, Terrados N, Larsen H, Svedenhag J, Rolf CJ. Scand J Med Sci Sports. 1995 Aug;5(4):222-30.
Conclusion: The ratio for lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) isoform1-2 and isoform4-5 was increased when training at altitude due to a lowering of LDH4-5 and became close to what was observed in the Kenyan runners.
? Unfortunately this paper does not include race time comparisons of the Kenyan and trained Scandinavian runners which could expose the ?Kenyan running gene(s)?.

Aerobic exercise capacity at sea level and at altitude in Kenyan boys, junior and senior runners compared with Scandinavian runners. Saltin B, Larsen H, Terrados N, Bangsbo J, Bak T, Kim CK, Svedenhag J, Rolf CJ. Scand J Med Sci Sports. 1995 Aug;5(4):209-21.
Conclusion: Their high aerobic capacity, as well as their good running economy, makes them such superior runners. In addition, their low blood lactate and ammonia accumulation in blood when running may also be contributing factors.

Running economy of African and Caucasian distance runners. Weston AR, Mbambo Z, Myburgh KH. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000 Jun;32(6):1130-4.
Conclusion: This study indicates greater running economy and higher fractional utilization of VO2peak in African distance runners. Although not elucidating the origin of these differences, the findings may partially explain the success of African runners at the elite level.

African runners exhibit greater fatigue resistance, lower lactate accumulation, and higher oxidative enzyme activity. Weston AR, Karamizrak O, Smith A, Noakes TD, Myburgh KH. J Appl Physiol. 1999 Mar;86(3):915-23.
Conclusion: We conclude that the African and Caucasian runners in the present study differed with respect to oxidative enzyme activity, rate of lactate accumulation, and their ability to sustain high-intensity endurance exercise.
? Interestingly, the runners 10K race times where not significantly different!!
Click to view Paul Davies's profile Amateur 13 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
84. Mar 5, 2004 11:23 AM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
"Your brother has been to Africa."

No, i did not say he did!

"I would be delighted to continue discussion of the subject".

Great, i really do not mean to attack you, all i want is to know more. I really do hope you provide the data to back up your claims, without anymore insults.
Click to view hopper3011's profile Legend 317 posts since
Feb 27, 2001
85. Mar 5, 2004 1:45 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
Paul Davies,
You are absolutely correct, I was replying to the wrong person. It simply makes my blood boil when people start categorizing entire countries. That Desert Tortoise' brother feels able to state that 1.5 million people are endemically lazy whilst another 31 million people who live a great distance away are hardworking and "driven" leaves me stunned. To then correlate this spurious assertion with athletic achievement is nonsensical.

On the subject of references. If as I previously suggested, you read the ENTIRE thread, you will find plenty of statistical evidence quoted, which (to my mind) overwhelmingly suggests a genetic propensity for endurance athleticism in the East African region. Your references are interesting, if old news. Most I have already seen. Correct me if I have missed something, but none of them specifically tested anything other than physiologic markers? None actually took gene samples and contrasted them across national boundaries?

Your personal athletic achievements (whilst worthy) are of little consequence. Throughout this thread you will note a common statement "genetic potential can only be realized with concomitant attention to the required training". This has been repeated, in one form or another, by every member of the "pro-gene" camp. If you feel (as you seem to) that your work ethic is sufficiently strong, and that you are no different genetically from Paul Tergat, what reason do you give for not running 2:04? (that is not meant as a slap, just a reasonable question) Perhaps your hard work has lead you to the sharp edge of YOUR genetic potential?

What the "hard work" protagonists fails to explain is how, or why, the Africans have managed to so far outstrip the best available European-descended athletes (I have my own theory there, but more on that later). There are a plethora of examples of European-descended athletes (including currently active elite European and American athletes) whose work ethic, dedication and work schedules over years and years, far outstrip the work schedules of any Kenyan, without similar results. I mentioned the example of Dave Bedford, an ex-world record holder who, I think we can agree had a prodigious work ethic. Yet, on his best day, he would have been beaten by Haile and Paul. Not by a small margin, but by an entire lap of a 400m track. A quarter mile (give or take) in a 6.2 mile race. Work ethic, I don't think so.

My own theory for the East African phenomenon is simple. As I have previously expressed, I don't think the genetic make-up of ANY elite athlete differs greatly, be he/she British, American, Japanese, Kenyan, Ethiopian or whatever (and they all need to do the requisite workouts, whatever their nationality). What differs is the frequency of occurrence of the specific genetic sequence within the different populations. The pyramid effect is then seen. The broader the base of the pyramid (the number of good athletes) the higher the peak of the pyramid (the best athlete) can be built.

If 3 (these numbers are simply illustratory) British men have the genetic, physical (they were born with the requisite number of legs) and mental (a willingness to do the work required) make-up to run 27 mins, the pressure on the best athlete to run 26 mins is considerably less than in Kenya where perhaps 20 men have the required ability.

I will extract one example of statistics relating to Kenyan marathoners from an earlier post:
quote:<HR>In 2002, Kenya (pop. 31,000,000) had 224 individuals who recorded 343 sub-2:20 performances. Whilst I agree that the US has not kept up with it's previous performance in the sub-2:20 league, there never were that number of top performers. Ever, by any nation (including Japan). On population size comparisons, this is equal to over 2,100 US runners going sub-2:20.<HR>


Considering the largest number of sub-2:20 marathoners ever by the US was around 130 (Desert Tortoise' figure) there is a huge deficit in numbers of sub-2:20 performers per capita.

The USA (and GB) has not kept it's performance levels as high as in the '70's and '80's, but this one statistic says it all really because it is independent of the performances of other athletes. What pressure, do you think, is on the leading Kenyan performers to outstrip their genetic peers?

To say that one gene is responsible for all athletic success is laughable, and is ironically only argued by the people who think that genes are not responsible at all.

Anybody who truly believes that a genetic difference exists between East African and European-descended athletes KNOWS that genes are not the whole story, just a large part of it.
Click to view hopper3011's profile Legend 317 posts since
Feb 27, 2001
86. Mar 5, 2004 2:07 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
Desert Tortoise,
Despite the fact that my comments were addressed to the wrong person, can you honestly state that they were off point, given the claims laid by you?
Perhaps, because I misattributed authorship, Nairobi and Gaborone are in fact near neighbours instead of being as comparable as Bhopal and Tehran? Perhaps you have found the missing ingredient in everyone's workouts (I hope you can tell us where to get "driven"-ness)?

Once again, I have NOT been attempting to ELIMINATE other influences, such as diet, childhood experience, etc. I have ONLY suggested that the other influences are worth less (not worthless) without the genetic predisposition to excellence.
Click to view hopper3011's profile Legend 317 posts since
Feb 27, 2001
87. Mar 5, 2004 2:09 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
Desert Tortoise,
Despite the fact that my comments were addressed to the wrong person, can you honestly state that they were off point, given the claims laid by you?
Perhaps, because I misattributed authorship, Nairobi and Gaborone are in fact near neighbours instead of being as comparable as Bhopal and Tehran? Perhaps you have found the missing ingredient in everyone's workouts (I hope you can tell us where to get "driven"-ness)?

Once again, I have NOT been attempting to ELIMINATE other influences, such as diet, childhood experience, etc. I have ONLY suggested that the other influences are worth less (not worthless) without the genetic predisposition to excellence.
Click to view Paul Davies's profile Amateur 13 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
88. Mar 5, 2004 4:44 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
Hopper3011 Thanks for supplying some numbers. I am sorry that i only joined in late in the thread. Sorry the references are old news to you but from what you write suggests to me that you disregard their findings.

If the study took "gene samples" (do not entirely know what you mean by this but presume you mean that they look at gene expression?) the study would only see what genes are expressed or repressed which could all be explained by activity dependent (ie training, environmental conditions) changes in gene expression. This would not mean that these great runners will pass on the ability to run fast to their children.

"Correct me if I have missed something, but none of them specifically tested anything other than physiologic markers? " Not so, the examination of expression of genes encoding for LDH (Saltin et al) showed that gene expression which aids running is changed during training.
If your theory on Kenya being an isolated nation allowing for selection of gene(s) for faster running is true (and i am not saying it is not) then the study by Billat et al where they examined potential reasons why success of Kenyan women lagged behind that of men found that the difference was training. For an isolated nation to acquire a genetic advantage you would expect a near equal prevelance in women.
Weston et al found a potential difference in genes "with respect to oxidative enzyme activity, rate of lactate accumulation, and their ability to sustain high-intensity endurance exercise". However, this had no effect on race results.

"If you feel (as you seem to) that your work ethic is sufficiently strong, and that you are no different genetically from Paul Tergat, what reason do you give for not running 2:04? (that is not meant as a slap, just a reasonable question) " -Good question, i often wonder how fast i could go had i been a runner instead of a swimmer during my development, had i not smoked during my teens and twenties, had i had a good diet. Even now because of work commitment i can only do 45 miles a week training, maybe 50, and i wonder how fast i could go if i could spend 6 months training to race and not have work get in the way.

"Perhaps your hard work has lead you to the sharp edge of YOUR genetic potential?"- Maybe, i would love to find out. None of my family has been althetic but that means nothing. I know you will hate this comparison but Paula Radcliffe had a farther and brother who where runners but no way near her potential. Maybe the genes jumped a generation and maybe the grandparents where fantastic runners. I believe people have un-tapped potential and it goes down to many factors in their life.

"What the "hard work" protagonists fails to explain is how, or why, the Africans have managed to so far outstrip the best available European-descended athletes (I have my own theory there, but more on that later). There are a plethora of examples of European-descended athletes (including currently active elite European and American athletes) whose work ethic, dedication and work schedules over years and years, far outstrip the work schedules of any Kenyan, without similar results. I mentioned the example of Dave Bedford, an ex-world record holder who, I think we can agree had a prodigious work ethic. Yet, on his best day, he would have been beaten by Haile and Paul. Not by a small margin, but by an entire lap of a 400m track. A quarter mile (give or take) in a 6.2 mile race. Work ethic, I don't think so."
- Maybe but excuse me for my lack of knowledge here but are we talking about different eras here? Did Dave Bedford ever manage to beat the Kenyans of his day?

"What differs is the frequency of occurrence of the specific genetic sequence within the different populations"
-Thanks for readdressing your theory for me. Yes, potentially correct and would take an enormously complicated study to prove- unless you know of one? However, as i mentioned above, with the study on the difference between elite women and men would suggest (and i stress suggest) otherwise.

"If 3 (these numbers are simply illustratory) British men have the genetic, physical (they were born with the requisite number of legs) and mental (a willingness to do the work required) make-up to run 27 mins, the pressure on the best athlete to run 26 mins is considerably less than in Kenya where perhaps 20 men have the required ability."
-This is entirely plucked from the air. I understand where you are coming from but this is meaningless.

"I will extract one example of statistics relating to Kenyan marathoners from an earlier post:
quote:<HR>In 2002, Kenya (pop. 31,000,000) had 224 individuals who recorded 343 sub-2:20 performances. Whilst I agree that the US has not kept up with it's previous performance in the sub-2:20 league, there never were that number of top performers. Ever, by any nation (including Japan). On population size comparisons, this is equal to over 2,100 US runners going sub-2:20.<HR>


Considering the largest number of sub-2:20 marathoners ever by the US was around 130 (Desert Tortoise' figure) there is a huge deficit in numbers of sub-2:20 performers per capita. "

-Thanks for that. They are fasinating figures. However, you can not go on population numbers. How many elite althetes in the US and Kenya actually trained for a marathon in that year? I believe that good runners in Kenya are spotted early and sent to training camps. So you need to know how many elite athletes trained, it may turn out that Kenya had a superior number of eleite runners training for a marathon than the US and other nations.

It reminds me of an interesting stat i saw a while back:
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/6/6_1/1180.shtml[/URL" target="_blank">
"In 1978, 3,872 runners (mostly men at that time) were recognized in the published results for finishing the Boston Marathon (which in 1978 meant finishing within four hours). Of those finishers, 2,047 broke three hours. In 2002, only 1,024 men broke 3:00 hours. (Of course this was in a significantly larger field. There were 9,234 recognized male finishers, 6,672 of them in under four hours.)"
-So why would the absolute numbers of sub-3 hour marathons decrease? The article suggested training. Maybe, maybe not. I certainly wouldn't suggest a loss of "genetically gifted" runners over this time. I would be interested in what everyone who is still reading this thinks, maybe i will suggest this for a separte thread!


"The USA (and GB) has not kept it's performance levels as high as in the '70's and '80's, but this one statistic says it all really because it is independent of the performances of other athletes. What pressure, do you think, is on the leading Kenyan performers to outstrip their genetic peers? "
- the numbers are dependent on how many people train for the marathon, if one nation selects good athletes and trains them for specific events whereas other nations (independent on poulation size) do not then you would predict that the nation who selects will outstrip other nations. I am sorry i do not understand your question.

"To say that one gene is responsible for all athletic success is laughable, and is ironically only argued by the people who think that genes are not responsible at all. "
-who said that? I have not said that (only in jest). I think you are putting words in peoples mouth. I write gene(s) as i have not seen any evidence of one or multiple genes having an advantage.

"Anybody who truly believes that a genetic difference exists between East African and European-descended athletes KNOWS that genes are not the whole story, just a large part of it."
-Maybe true but what is the 'large part' of athletic ability are we talking about here? Anatomical? Biochemical? Physiological? It would be more informative to know what you KNOW so we can explore it further. If you had coutless money for a genetic study what would you study first? I would probably do a large poulation study on VO2 max differences and biochemistry of cellular respiration.

Again, i am not attacking anyone for their ideas i am just very interested in what makes certain people excellent.
Click to view fredurie's profile Legend 1,979 posts since
Aug 21, 2002
89. Mar 6, 2004 12:25 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: The Kenyan Way
Running economy of African and Caucasian distance runners. Weston AR, Mbambo Z, Myburgh KH. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000 Jun;32(6):1130-4.
Conclusion: This study indicates greater running economy and higher fractional utilization of VO2peak in African distance runners. Although not elucidating the origin of these differences, the findings may partially explain the success of African runners at the elite level

Joe Vigil claims this fractionalized Vo2Max is a product of the
amount of tempo or LT work as exemplified by Deena
Drossin.