How to become national? ...

Support | Event Directors & Organizers

Search Cool Running Community

Browse Cool Running

CoolRunning.com > Cool Running Community > The Competitive Wire >

Up to Threads in The Competitive Wire

29 Replies Last post: Oct 6, 2006 6:37 PM by ljwoodw Go to original post 1 2 Previous Next

pmsim

20 posts since
Jul 6, 2006

15. Sep 5, 2006 11:32 AM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

When I saw your first post I was expecting someone to rudely rain on your parade. I'm surprised no one has.

The best advice I think anyone can give is to push your long term goal out of your mind. Make short term achievable goals and make sure you find joy in running outside of busting your butt trying to win races.

Lets be realistic for a second. You have 1%> chance of ever being considered "elite". Even giving you that 1% is probably very generous.

Even your short term goal of setting course records at your local races is probably unrealistic, depending on where you live.

5 years from now when it dawns on you that your goal was totally unrealistic are you going to be happy that you spent 2 hours a day training? Instead you could have been training 45 mintes a day and aspiring to better yourself on a realistic level at local races. The extra 1.25 hours per day could have been spent with your family.

Here are some names and ages.

Paul Tergat 37
Haile Gebrselassie 34
Khalid Khannouchi 35
Hendrick Ramaala 34
Mbarek Hussein 41

I realize you don't aspire to be nearly this level, but my point is there is not a lot of drop off at 40 no matter what level you compete on.

mikeymike013

71 posts since
Apr 9, 2006

16. Sep 5, 2006 12:16 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by pmsim:
When I saw your first post I was expecting someone to rudely rain on your parade. I'm surprised no one has.<HR>

Actually my first thought was that onenikerunner was a troll. In fact I'm still not 100% sure. But if so, very well played.

DanMoriarity

823 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

17. Sep 5, 2006 1:36 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by pmsim:

5 years from now when it dawns on you that your goal was totally unrealistic are you going to be happy that you spent 2 hours a day training? Instead you could have been training 45 mintes a day and aspiring to better yourself on a realistic level at local races. The extra 1.25 hours per day could have been spent with your family.

<HR>

You can look at it that way or you could look at it that in 5 years at least he'd know that he gave it his best shot in pursuing a goal that's important to him.

I'm not a fan of the "give up before you try because you'll probably never make it" mindset.

However, it certainly would be a long, long, long shot to reach national level after taking up running at 38. There are a couple who have done it, or something similar, though. Jack Foster was a professional cyclist who took up running at 32 and was an Olympian at age 39 and again at 43. Priscilla Welch took up running in her 30s and was world class at 41. Colleen De Rueck was an Olympian at 39 I believe. But of course, those are extremely rare circumstances.

I really think the healthiest way to approach it is if you love to run, then run, without worrying about future results or rewards. There are so many things that are out of your control as far as injuries, genetics, luck of the draw etc. If you're running for some future reward that may or may not happen, you stand a good chance of being disappointed. If you're running because you enjoy the process of challenging yourself and trying to do your best than you can be satisfied regardless of whatever level you reach. Most of the top runners that I know of started running not with the express purpose of being an Olympian or setting a world record, they just ran because it was a fun activity and eventually their success became almost a byproduct of their passion for running.

onenikerunner

17 posts since
Aug 29, 2006

18. Sep 5, 2006 5:05 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
You can look at it that way or you could look at it that in 5 years at least he'd know that he gave it his best shot in pursuing a goal that's important to him.

I'm not a fan of the "give up before you try because you'll probably never make it" mindset.

However, it certainly would be a long, long, long shot to reach national level after taking up running at 38. There are a couple who have done it, or something similar, though. Jack Foster was a professional cyclist who took up running at 32 and was an Olympian at age 39 and again at 43. Priscilla Welch took up running in her 30s and was world class at 41. Colleen De Rueck was an Olympian at 39 I believe. But of course, those are extremely rare circumstances.

I really think the healthiest way to approach it is if you love to run, then run, without worrying about future results or rewards. There are so many things that are out of your control as far as injuries, genetics, luck of the draw etc. If you're running for some future reward that may or may not happen, you stand a good chance of being disappointed. If you're running because you enjoy the process of challenging yourself and trying to do your best than you can be satisfied regardless of whatever level you reach. Most of the top runners that I know of started running not with the express purpose of being an Olympian or setting a world record, they just ran because it was a fun activity and eventually their success became almost a byproduct of their passion for running. <HR>

Well said... and thank you!

All I am saying is that I'd like to see what I can do over the next 4-6 years. I'd simply like to exhaust my potential..whatever that may be. If that means just being a strong master's runner at the regional level, then that's OK with me. That said, I'm willing to work extremely hard to see what is possible. I believe that a healthy dose of realism is a good thing...so I'll keep that in mind.

Speaking of cyclists(and inspiration)...there was a british amateur cyclists by the name of Graem Obree, who one day was sitting in his bedroom staring at his bike while the rain pounded on his window outside. He decided in that moment that he wanted to, one day, break the 'world hour record'....and so his journey began there at that moment. He began to train without support or sponsorship of any kind. He even had to build his own bike using parts from a washing machine and an old BMX bike he found along the side of the road. he was an innovator, crafty, a tinkerer. anyway, long story short.... Obree did later set the world hour record on two occasions, as well as become a world champion in the individual pursuit on the track. During his world hour record ride...he rode faster than Eddy Merckx had done less than two decades before. How does an amateur cyclists like Obree rise up and ride the hour faster than the world's greatest cyclist of all time(arguably)? Now, I cannot think of a more improbable story than this one...although it is absolutely true. Part of the credit to Obree's incredible ride must be given to his innovative position on the bike that made him signifigantly more aero than other riders who had done the hour before him. However, I take inspiration in these stories...especially Obree's and Bostick, who made the olympic cycling team at age 43(married, had a job). Now what would have been our response when Obree came to us way back then and said that one day he was going to break the world hour record? ...or when Mr. Bostick said that he was going to try to win the olympic trials at age 43? Or how about when Herb Brooks said that he was going to take a mediocre group of young hockey players to the Olympics to beat the Russians...arguably the greatest team in the world at that time. even Herb Brooks admitted that he was a dreamer...like Willy Wonka.

So again, I'm simply setting out to see where the hard work and sacrafices might lead. I'll reevaluate my goals as I go along. I'll start with the local 10K's and 5K's..and getting solid placings and times there. Then I'll be ready to map out new goals when I'm satisfied with the initial ones. The local races give me a place to start and something to work toward and build upon. I'm really enjoying the training that i do alone. I get excited with any progress I make. I like to see the pounds drop away and the body changing week by week...as I begin(slowly but surely) chiseling out the form of a serious runner. I like the intervals and the pain of the workouts..as well as the euphoria that comes at the end of a hard run. I get excited when I go out and do a run faster and a little farther than I could do before. I look forward to those local races, so that I can test myself and see how I'm responding to the hard training.

Thanks again for the comments and feedback.

pmsim

20 posts since
Jul 6, 2006

19. Sep 5, 2006 5:13 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

I'm not at all saying don't try. What I am saying is set achievable goals and take it easy to begin with. There is almost no chance he will ever earn a dime running. Instead of throwing 2 hours a day at achieving an unrealistic goal just take it easy and be reasonable.

If on the very off chance it turns out he has some talent then maybe go for it down the road. Now if you say you want to train two hours a day because you love running and you are doing it for joy of the sport that is totally different and more power to you.

If I'm worng about this I apologize, but I have a feeling that no race times or training paces have been shared because he isn't even remotely close to where he would need to be.

People don't give running the respect it deserves. Everyone inherantly knows how to run right? So, why can't I be a pro if I work hard, right? That is the attitude. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. It's no different than being a pro football player or basketball player or anything else.

onenikerunner

17 posts since
Aug 29, 2006

20. Dec 22, 2007 2:22 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

PMSim...

I respect your position on this.

Regarding times...no I am not even remotely close to where I want to be. Currently I'm slow relative to many of you as I'm building my base currently.

I do know that I respond and improve quickly. That encourages me. With cycling, I still remember showing up for my first club rides being was dropped constantly by the faster, more fit riders, some of them competitive racers. After 12 weeks of steady training I was suddenly one of the stronger riders on the club rides...and soon won my first criterium in a field of 70 other cyclists. A few upgrades came the following season. Even finished 5th in the NC/SC state road race(Greenville, SC) and 4th in the NC state time-trial(Raleigh, NC). This of course was a few years back. I was still improving and getting stronger when I decided to take a break this year. I cycled a lot this year and decided to mix in some runs so that I'd maintain fitness while I was not competing. Anyway, along the way I fell in love with running. I started reading the running magazines, visiting websites, etc. Saw a Prefontaine documentary and read the book about him(we have to get our inspiration from somewhere don't we??). somehow I came to the point where I didn't want to ride my bike anymore because I wanted to go run instead. I started dreaming about doing 5K's, 10K's, and even a Marathon. Maybe even get on a track too???

I am encouraged, and hopeful that I might see similar progress(hoping for better!!) with my new found passion...running. I realize it is a tough sport and I'll have to pay my dues. I understand that there are some very fast competitors out there. Being a fit cyclist will mean little going forward. I'm practically starting over. I'm OK with that.

You only live once!

"it is our responsibility as men and women to proceed as though limits to our abilities do not exist. We are collaborators in creation"...Pierre Thielhard DeChardin

http://This message has been edited by onenikerunner (edited Sep-05-2006).

Born to Run060

557 posts since
Jul 1, 2002

21. Sep 6, 2006 3:57 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
You can look at it that way or you could look at it that in 5 years at least he'd know that he gave it his best shot in pursuing a goal that's important to him.

I'm not a fan of the "give up before you try because you'll probably never make it" mindset.

<HR>

I totally agree. And if you are not enjoying the path then find another one. I don't think any goal is worth it if you don't enjoy the day to day on some level. Sure some of the workouts are very tough and the day in day out miles can get monotonous, but you really need to enjoy what your doing each day in order to get anywhere and in order to really live life!

nike84

183 posts since
Aug 13, 2005

22. Sep 6, 2006 9:48 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by onenikerunner:
Well said... and thank you!

All I am saying is that I'd like to see what I can do over the next 4-6 years. I'd simply like to exhaust my potential..whatever that may be. If that means just being a strong master's runner at the regional level, then that's OK with me. That said, I'm willing to work extremely hard to see what is possible. I believe that a healthy dose of realism is a good thing...so I'll keep that in mind.

Speaking of cyclists(and inspiration)...there was a british amateur cyclists by the name of Graem Obree, who one day was sitting in his bedroom staring at his bike while the rain pounded on his window outside. He decided in that moment that he wanted to, one day, break the 'world hour record'....and so his journey began there at that moment. He began to train without support or sponsorship of any kind. He even had to build his own bike using parts from a washing machine and an old BMX bike he found along the side of the road. he was an innovator, crafty, a tinkerer. anyway, long story short.... Obree did later set the world hour record on two occasions, as well as become a world champion in the individual pursuit on the track. During his world hour record ride...he rode faster than Eddy Merckx had done less than two decades before. How does an amateur cyclists like Obree rise up and ride the hour faster than the world's greatest cyclist of all time(arguably)? Now, I cannot think of a more improbable story than this one...although it is absolutely true. Part of the credit to Obree's incredible ride must be given to his innovative position on the bike that made him signifigantly more aero than other riders who had done the hour before him. However, I take inspiration in these stories...especially Obree's and Bostick, who made the olympic cycling team at age 43(married, had a job). Now what would have been our response when Obree came to us way back then and said that one day he was going to break the world hour record? ...or when Mr. Bostick said that he was going to try to win the olympic trials at age 43? Or how about when Herb Brooks said that he was going to take a mediocre group of young hockey players to the Olympics to beat the Russians...arguably the greatest team in the world at that time. even Herb Brooks admitted that he was a dreamer...like Willy Wonka.

So again, I'm simply setting out to see where the hard work and sacrafices might lead. I'll reevaluate my goals as I go along. I'll start with the local 10K's and 5K's..and getting solid placings and times there. Then I'll be ready to map out new goals when I'm satisfied with the initial ones. The local races give me a place to start and something to work toward and build upon. I'm really enjoying the training that i do alone. I get excited with any progress I make. I like to see the pounds drop away and the body changing week by week...as I begin(slowly but surely) chiseling out the form of a serious runner. I like the intervals and the pain of the workouts..as well as the euphoria that comes at the end of a hard run. I get excited when I go out and do a run faster and a little farther than I could do before. I look forward to those local races, so that I can test myself and see how I'm responding to the hard training.

Thanks again for the comments and feedback.

<HR>

The best way to approach this is to have a "good go" at your
plans and see how it goes. Be smart with your training, maybe try to get some good coaching and have fun whilst doing it. Jack Foster was a great guy -sounds like you have a great attitude- Have fun and good luck. Cheers

altocinco

8 posts since
Aug 15, 2006

23. Sep 8, 2006 12:52 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by onenikerunner:
Regarding times...no I am not even remotely close to where I want to be. Currently I'm slow relative to many of you as I'm building my base currently.

I do know that I respond and improve quickly. That encourages me. With cycling, I still remember showing up for my first club rides being was dropped constantly by the faster, more fit riders, some of them competitive racers. After 12 weeks of steady training I was suddenly one of the stronger riders on the club rides...and soon won my first criterium in a field of 70 other cyclists. A few upgrades came the following season.<HR>

I'm not sure I'm adding much to the conversation here, but I do have perhaps a different perspective on your questions than most of the other posters.

I was (a few years ago) a professional MTB/Road cyclist in the US (female). I started riding on a whim, and very quickly improved. WIthin a year and a half of starting to ride, I had upgraded to pro-level, and before I started riding, I didn't exercise at all regularly.

Now I'm retired from cycling. And I took up running because it was something different, a new set of challenges, etc.

Am I anywhere NEAR national-class after 3 years? Absolutely not. I'm hoping to run around 3:25 at Chicago this fall. While it's a respectable time, it's certainly not going to get me on any top-100 lists. This is despite training smartly, putting in miles, watching what I eat, etc. Running is just a different animal from cycling, and fitness from one doesn't necessarily transfer to the other. My sense is that running (for all but a few genetically-gifted freaks of nature) is something that takes MANY years to develop, much more so than cycling. I hear about MANY more people making the sort of rapid improvements necessary to become national class in cycling than I do running.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that there's no reason not to try to improve on your running. But why do you need to be considered "National Class"? Will you not consider yourself a runner unless that happens? And what happens when you plateau, and you stop getting any faster?

My advice is to run if you enjoy running. Don't worry so much about setting records, and focus on the enjoyment of it. Look for a running club locally, learn from them (since they usually have a lot to teach), and just enjoy running for what it is. It's okay to make the effort to improve, certainly. But you might want to focus on some smaller, shorter-term goals for for the near term, to establish a baseline of sorts before setting your sights on the top rung.

rbbmoose

324 posts since
Oct 12, 2007

24. Sep 8, 2006 5:17 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

Yes... I agree with altocino. While rapid improvement may be normal for beginning, shaving those last minutes off almost always takes time and a good deal of work. And another important difference is that cycling is pretty much impact free... So you can train longer without threat of injury - I KNOW that running a couple of hours of day would lead me to injury in a hurry (stress fractures) whereas cycling would just make me tired.

As far as being "Nationally" ranked... Is there really a database somewhere? and what to the USAFT guidelines mean. For my advanced age (46) - which I've been told (on this board) are "mediocre" - I at least meet the USATF guidelines for 10 miles (58:55) - if there is a national ranking for marathoners, I'd like to see where I stand.

As far as finishing in the money for the masters class, It is indeed pretty competitive although I've managed to win $100 at my last two medium sized marathons as 3rd OA Master.

Ray

Sun Raider

361 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

25. Sep 9, 2006 1:37 AM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

How good were you as a cyclist? That is going to one BIG indicator of VO2 max. If you were national class as a cyclist you might be national class as a runner after about 4-5 years hard work.

I agree with everyone else. You need baseline race or races to know where you are.

To be national class or just the best you can be you will probably need to run 60-70 mpw minimal with 5-10% of that being speed work and races. You will need to take 1-2 years to work up to that level and stay there throughout the year, year after year. Forget the cycling. It won't transfer. The biggest difference betwen cylcing and running is the pounding. Pushing against a pedal is not the same as pounding against the ground.

You should read Daniels books and maybe ready Lydiard too.

I was a ranked runner in my 20's and 30's. I ran 70-80 mpw. I wasn't national class but I was one of the top 30-40 runners in the Northwest for almost 10 years.

I remember my first race and thinking that I would be up there with the leaders. I finished 300th runner out of about 2000. Right then, after the shock wore off, I knew I had a great deal or work ahead of me. By the way, I had 3 years of consistent running under my belt before my first race. It took be another 5 years to achieve ranking in the top 100 runners and another several years to get into the top 50.

Jack Foster was a top competitve cyclist in New Zealand in the 60's who turned to running and became world class in his 40's.

Can you do it? There are no rules but there are physical limitations. Jack Foster couldn't run a mile the first time out but then ran a 2:11 marathon at age 42. The big question is can you overcome a late start and 3 kids. the you'll need to figure out your talent level and be very very patient in building miles to find out what you can really be.

I think it's fun to be where you are. It was exciting to me back then.

ljwoodw

550 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

26. Oct 4, 2006 11:55 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by rbbmoose:
- if there is a national ranking for marathoners, I'd like to see where I stand<HR>

You could look here[/URL" target="_blank">

rbbmoose

324 posts since
Oct 12, 2007

27. Oct 5, 2006 8:24 AM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

Thanks for posting the list LJ - looks like only 2005 is available and I'm about 60 seconds away from making the list.

I've ratcheted up my training and hopefully I'm on target to PR at Philly Marathon in November...

Ray

sparkage

76 posts since
Oct 30, 2004

28. Oct 5, 2006 11:31 AM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

Good luck with that, Ray. If you crack 2:45, it seems that would give you a top 1000 marathon time in the country this year. It would be interesting to filter out the duplicate names (those who have run more than one 2:45 or better in the year) to get a read on how many marathon runners of that caliber there are in the country. Of course, one could take it a step further and list by state and age ... seems like there would be an easy way to accomplish this with Excel ... not my forte, however.

ljwoodw

550 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

29. Oct 6, 2006 6:37 PM

in response to: onenikerunner

Re: How to become national?

They are filtered. See those names that appear without rankings next to them? Those are people who ran faster in a different race that year.

I always find this list to be humbling.

------------------
My Profile[/URL" target="_blank">

Go to original post 1 2 Previous Next

Go to original post

Actions

More Like This

New Runners

Training

Competition

Age Groups

Fitness

The Lighter Side

Feedback

Related Links