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Click to view hopper3011's profile Legend 317 posts since
Feb 27, 2001
15. Sep 12, 2006 4:26 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: Now Landis is challenging his test results ...
Nice try, but not a good analogy. Arabs can't exactly help being Arabic, i.e. they don't get up one day and say "I think I'll be Arabic today".
Marion Jones gets up every morning and decides "I will compete under the IAAF rules today".
She is not obliged to do so, anytime she wants to she can drop into the local Piggly Wiggly and get a job bagging groceries.
On the other hand, every day she gets up and decides to be an athlete is a day she accepts the rules and regulations of the IAAF, including the fact that she might be suspended on an accusation which may or may not be proven at a later date.
Like it or not, those are the rules she chooses (note that word) to play by.

I certainly did think you were soft on drug cheats, in fact I bet you'd be tougher than I am (I honestly don't feel terribly strongly about it) but don't confuse the rules you choose with the rules you don't.
Click to view hopper3011's profile Legend 317 posts since
Feb 27, 2001
18. Sep 13, 2006 6:08 AM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: Now Landis is challenging his test results ...
quote:<HR>the concept of presumption of innocence and due process<HR>
Whilst I agree that these are wonderful principles, if you can find any mention of them in either the IAAF Constitution or the IAAF Comeptition Rules, please point it out.
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
20. Sep 13, 2006 3:40 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: Now Landis is challenging his test results ...
"The only testosterone metabolite that can even be argued as positive under the WADA Positivity Criteria resulted from an unknown laboratory error and is not the result of testosterone usage."

--I have to wonder what evidence they have that this is the case. It could be either BS or actually a concern depending upon where it comes from. Attributing it to an error that is unkown is curious; if you know it was tied to an error, then how is the error unknown? Did some control come out funky?

--If it is true that sample numbers were mismatched, this doping case is in serious trouble. Matching and confirming the sample numbers is a simple, simple, simple process. If, somehow, there was confusion on the sample numbers, there will be problems with this case.

I'm not familiar enough with the biochemistry behind the testosterone test to analyze the other results.
Click to view hopper3011's profile Legend 317 posts since
Feb 27, 2001
21. Dec 22, 2007 2:22 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: Now Landis is challenging his test results ...
quote:<HR>You're right of course, it's not in the rule book, it's simply my opinion that morally if not literally, if we're going to destroy someone's reputation and livelihood, we ought to be able to prove they've done something wrong.<HR>
To go back to what I said earlier, Marion Jones doesn't have to compete under IAAF rules, she can get a job doing something else. As far as the IAAF is concerned, once the A test is in, the doping violation is proven (the athlete can waive the right to have the B tested).
Having chosen to accept the IAAF rules she is surely fully aware of Rule 38, which provides for an immediate, provisional, suspension if a violation is proven. The rule also states that once the athlete is provisionally suspended, the reason for the suspension can be published to the media. Although how you suspend somebody without announcing to the world that they have failed a drug test is beyond me (perhaps "double secret probation"?).
You either protect someone who is, in the eyes of the governing body, already proven guilty, or you protect the innocent athletes. I know which way I'd go.

http://This message has been edited by hopper3011 (edited Sep-14-2006).
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
22. Sep 14, 2006 6:32 AM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: Now Landis is challenging his test results ...
Actually, the doping violation is only proven IF the athlete waives the B sample test. If they require it, and it proves negative, are you saying it's still considered a doping violation? I don't believe it would be handled that way.
Click to view hopper3011's profile Legend 317 posts since
Feb 27, 2001
23. Sep 14, 2006 8:06 AM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: Now Landis is challenging his test results ...
No, it's all to do with the standard of proof, which is on the balance of probabilities. If the A is positive, then the doping violation is proved in the eyes of the IAAF. If the athlete waives the test of the B sample, then the violation is uncontested.
If the B sample is negative, then on the balance of probabilities the athlete is found not guilty because there are more scenarios in which the athlete is innocent than in which he/she is guilty.
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
24. Sep 14, 2006 3:16 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: Now Landis is challenging his test results ...
If it were "proved in the eyes of the IAAF", there would never be a "B" sample...punishment would take place right there.
Click to view hopper3011's profile Legend 317 posts since
Feb 27, 2001
25. Sep 15, 2006 7:23 AM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: Now Landis is challenging his test results ...
The rules are quite clear: "Following notification of an adverse analytical finding or other antidoping rule violation under these Anti-Doping Rules, the matter shall be subject to the results management process set out below." That is the start of Rule 37, as far as the IAAF are concerned the A sample proves it, and the burden of proof shifts to the athlete (which is why the B sample exists).
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
26. Sep 16, 2006 2:44 PM in response to: DanMoriarity
Re: Now Landis is challenging his test results ...
The burden of proof may SHIFT, but that doesn't mean a doping violation has been proven. If it's proven, why test the B sample? Why have it at all? It exists because the full proof requires it. The athlete may waive it and essentially admit they doped (has this EVER happened?), but that doesn't mean the A proved it.

If the A proves guilt, then what happens when the B is negative? According to you guilt was already proven, so now what? "Proven" means doubt does not remain. If there is a B sample, and it is negative, there is suure a lot of doubt remaining.