Marathon running/heart damage...

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dtoce

383 posts since
Nov 10, 2003

Dec 22, 2007 7:53 PM

Marathon running/heart damage...

I''m surprised that BAP didn't dig this out in December, but I thought I'd open the can of worms here since Boston is just around the corner and one (of about 17 on my desk) of the journals I read today alluded to this study again. Interesting that those doing >45 miles/week were less at risk...

http://www.thefinalsprint.com/2007/02/heart-health-and-marathon-running-preparation-is-key/[/URL" target="_blank">

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/02.01/99-marathon.html[/URL" target="_blank">

Here was the original article by Dr Noakes (yes of the 'Lore of Running' fame) back in 1977.

http://www.annalsnyas.org/cgi/content/abstract/301/1/593[/URL" target="_blank">

This has been in the news more lately as there were 6 deaths in major marathons during 2006.

What do people think?

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edited to add:
here's the link to the abstract

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/114/22/2325[/URL" target="_blank">

and the lay press's comments (NY Times)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/07/fashion/07Fitness.html?ex=1174104000&en=7a8bcad291fb75dc&ei=5070[/URL" target="_blank">

http://This message has been edited by dtoce (edited Mar-15-2007).

Karl Rysted

512 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

1. Mar 15, 2007 3:54 PM

in response to: dtoce

Doc Dale:

Did you know we're summer '61 birth buddies? Anyway, I'm all in favor of us marathoners getting our hearts checked out. In case you didn't see it, here are the threads about my symptoms and test last fall:

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum13/HTML/008049.shtml[/URL" target="_blank">

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum13/HTML/008102.shtml[/URL" target="_blank">

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cajohnson5

567 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

2. Mar 15, 2007 4:10 PM

in response to: dtoce

Dr. Dale -- first I wanted to say have really missed your posts lately.
Read quickly through all of the articles. I have to agree about the importance of adequate training for a marathon and without it, you run heart-related risks. I got in a little bit of trouble at the end of my last one and ended up in the medical tent afterward. Am I going to stop running marathons? No. Am I going to increase my mileage before the next one? Yes. Am I going to ignore symptoms at the end of a race in order to get across the line? Probably. At the very least, I understand the mentality.
Did the study monitor other factors such as hydration, etc. of the runners during the race? I might have read too quickly, but didn't notice anything about that, and was wondering if that factored in any way.

roy c

452 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

3. Mar 15, 2007 5:05 PM

in response to: dtoce

So is it better for your heart to keep your training in the high 40's miles per week, with a gradual build up of course.
Roy

running monk

2 posts since
Jun 26, 2006

4. Mar 15, 2007 5:08 PM

in response to: dtoce

I have to admit that this new awareness brought on by last years events did make me dust off the heart rate monitor to keep an eye on how I pace my training runs by effort, not just by time. Its really helped me to make sure I keep my easy days easy at no more than 70%. Its also helped push myself on hard days within healthy boundaries.

Sadly in a couple of those death's last year the runners were in good health before the race and they were experienced runners.

bigapplepie

2,636 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

5. Dec 22, 2007 7:53 PM

in response to: dtoce

I'm not one for scare stories. The vitamin story was backed up by EU research that has led to the regulation of supplements.

In saying that, running is extremely dangerous for the heart. Two of mine have exploded since I started running. Fortunately I was born with three.

Physical activity should be avoided at all time along with any "fad" diets that include fresh fruit and vegetables.

http://This message has been edited by bigapplepie (edited Mar-15-2007).

Sans Souci027

1,204 posts since
Sep 9, 2005

6. Dec 22, 2007 7:53 PM

in response to: dtoce

I don't know if FireFox is omitting some text, but I found this interesting (in the third link):

"In spite of developing chest pain, another athlete who died had continued training for three weeks, including a 40 mile run."

Extraordinary!

So what's an aging boomer to do? The lure of the "less-is-more" program is great when one suffers overuse injuries when building miles. Does speedwork stress the heart (in a good way) in a similar way additional miles might? Is it better to do three high-quality workouts a week or two plus more mileage days?

http://This message has been edited by Sans Souci (edited Mar-15-2007).

Holly S.

1,828 posts since
Nov 26, 2007

7. Mar 15, 2007 6:25 PM

in response to: dtoce

Scary stuff. I read an article about this a couple of months ago and called my general practitioner to ask if he thought I should get my heart checked. He said if I had not exhibited any alarming symptoms or had any other risk factors, he didn't think so.

But then, due to tendinitis issues, I had to reduce my mileage for three weeks during the high-mileage time of my training, which I'm sure puts me right into the not-adequately-rained category these articles speak of.

I guess I'll find out soon enough.

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Holly[/URL" target="_blank">

dtoce

383 posts since
Nov 10, 2003

8. Dec 22, 2007 7:53 PM

in response to: dtoce

I thought the article was interesting and thought provoking-so I brought it up...but let me state for the record that I'm a firm believer in exercise/running and marathoning.

I've said all along that one must be careful if there are many risk factors for CAD and people should always heed warning symptoms. It's just that people have done so very good at getting up and becoming more active-especially Boomers!-but one should consider that there is some added risk with prolonged endurance exercise. I just want to alert people to the importance of appropriate screening.

The article quotes that last year there were 397,000 marathon finishers last year-up 3.7% from the year before (2005), 39% of which were women, BTW. The concern lately is the increased number of deaths during several marquis marathons that has prompted some additional attention from the medical community.

The article stresses the importance of proper training. And in the jounrnal that I read it in (Today in Cardiology March 2007), there are links to 'information about running and training' with a note that there is 'a couch-to-5K plan online at www.coolrunning.com[/URL" target="_blank"> '

Karl-yes I read your threads...with interest...glad you are doing ok

cindy-you are too kind. I read a lot, but miss a lot of daily threads (not enough time in the day...)

roy-yes. that is what they are saying and I find that interesting.

Sans Souci-you devil! luring me out of a fine piece of woodwork...This article did not address any additional risks of speedtraining-just total mileage and a 4 month block of marathon training.

http://This message has been edited by dtoce (edited Mar-15-2007).

nighthawk42

119 posts since
Nov 4, 2005

9. Mar 15, 2007 6:54 PM

in response to: dtoce

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sans Souci:

So what's an aging boomer to do? The lure of the "less-is-more" program is great when one suffers overuse injuries when building miles. Does speedwork stress the heart (in a good way) in a similar way additional miles might? Is it better to do three high-quality workouts a week or two plus more mileage days?
<HR>

What the aging boomer should do, is the same as what other athletes do and that is to train approriately.

The reality is, marathoning is now a big business and to get people out there you can't advertise that it takes years to to build the required base. How many RW would sell if the cover said 5 Years to Your Best Marathon...we need instant gratification....but I digress...

The heart is a muscle and we need to give it the same consideration we give our legs in running. Does speed work help you for a long run, not really (yes I know there is some benefit) and will running long make you faster, not really. Speed work will help build the pumping action to move the volume of blood, but long runs work the heart at an elevated level for a long time. Both are necessay for success. And just like our legs, it needs stress and recovery, stress and recovery and over time the adaptations will propel you to a level that can handel the affects of a marathon.

There are no shorts cuts and runners need to accept that and enjoy the training experience.

Thanks Dale!!

Mike

tomwhite

2,001 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

10. Mar 15, 2007 7:07 PM

in response to: dtoce

................well put mike//.........(as I sit nodding my head reading this)......

.........good thread dtoce......

Econo011

1,459 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

11. Mar 15, 2007 7:09 PM

in response to: dtoce

What are the statistics on heart attacks among fans at football games? The ambulances are always close by at games. I think, statistically, the sheer numbers of runners in the marquis races means that somebody's likely to have a heart attack anyway.

dtoce

383 posts since
Nov 10, 2003

12. Mar 15, 2007 7:22 PM

in response to: dtoce

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Econo:
What are the statistics on heart attacks among fans at football games? The ambulances are always close by at games. I think, statistically, the sheer numbers of runners in the marquis races means that somebody's likely to have a heart attack anyway. <HR>

I don't think that study has been done-but it would be interesting. This is one of the first that I've read that is prospective and includes marathon runners that train in our era.

I'd be willing to bet that you are comparing apples and oranges. And the more active apples would fare better than the soft oranges...

Sans Souci027

1,204 posts since
Sep 9, 2005

13. Mar 15, 2007 7:27 PM

in response to: dtoce

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sans Souci:
"In spite of developing chest pain, another athlete who died had continued training for three weeks, including a 40 mile run."

Extraordinary!<HR>

Should clarify. Extraordinary for two reasons:

I chuckled at the awkward sentence structure; I read this as though the runner continued training after death.

Not knowing what kind of chest pain might sound the alarm -- still, it's hard to believe one would do a 40-miler after chest pain. Guess you really should listen to your heart.

SMP

1,295 posts since
Sep 29, 2007

14. Mar 15, 2007 7:41 PM

in response to: dtoce

Now I'm really glad I'm having a physical before the big race in May.

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Dec 22, 2007 7:53 PM

Marathon running/heart damage...

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