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6 Replies Last post: Aug 28, 2007 10:04 PM by Michael_Taylor

Steve - Mainer

10 posts since
May 30, 2007

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Aug 26, 2007 5:10 PM

Rule clarification

Nice world series today........ both teams did well.

I attended a world series Umpire party today to end the season and a rule came up and everyone is all over the place on it. I thought I would throw it out for your input. It is amazing to me how everyone is diversified on this one.

Situation: LL game. At the beginnig of 2nd inning, manager wishes to replace 1B with a sub. He played 3 outs, but did not bat. I tell him the player has not yet met mandatory play yet, and he says he will get his bat when he pulls the sub.

Is this correct? I say no and did not allow it. Say I did, and he/she puts in the sub, then pulls that sub and in puts another sub the same way. Now I have 3 players who need a bat to meet MRP.

I believe the intent of the rule is to NOT allow the substitution until AFTER MRP is met by the player. There is too much room for error and a tracking nightmare the other way.

What say ye?

K_J

5 posts since
May 30, 2007

1. Aug 26, 2007 5:41 PM

in response to: Steve - Mainer

Re: Rule clarification

the only player that does not need MPR before he is removed for a sub is the starter...but he/she still must have MPR sometime during the game

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Mason_Dixon_Blue

35 posts since
May 25, 2007

2. Aug 27, 2007 6:25 AM

in response to: Steve - Mainer

Re: Rule clarification

Steve,

Just like during the regular season, starters do not have to meet MPR before being removed.

Read tournament rule 10C on page T-15. It says; A _*substitute *_entering the game for the first time may not be removed prior to completion to his or her mandatory play requirements. If the rules makers would have intended this to mean all players, they wouldn't have specifically stated substitutes. They would have said "A player" entering the game........

Edited to add: After reading your question again, it appears that you was referring to regular season rules. Sorry about that. My mind was stuck in "Tournament Mode". However, that doesn't change my answer at all.

For regular season, nothing in Reg. IV(i) requires the defensive outs to be consecutive. The only requirement for six consecutive defensive outs is in 3.03, where it lists the requirements for a substitute before the starter to return. A substitute's defensive outs must be consecutive, because he doesn't have re-entry rights. But a starter can return and then complete the remainder of his MPR. Therefore, his defensive outs don't have to be consecutive.

Many people read the word "consecutive" in 3.03 and try to apply it to Reg IV(i). It doesn't work that way. If the rules makers would have wanted everyone's defensive outs to be consecutive, they would have listed it that way in the regulations as well.

Hope this helps

Bill

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HugoTafurst

19 posts since
May 25, 2007

3. Aug 27, 2007 6:08 AM

in response to: Steve - Mainer

Re: Rule clarification

As I understand the rule, the above to answers are absolutely correct.

A starter can be substituted for before meeting mandatory play.

Of course, the starter will need to be re-entered sometime after sub HAS met mandatory play to complete his obligation.

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Manny_A

26 posts since
May 25, 2007

4. Aug 27, 2007 8:27 AM

in response to: Steve - Mainer

Re: Rule clarification

Hey Steve!

You're confusing MPR with Reentry requirements (and believe me, many do it because it's the same amount of play time). In order for a starter to reenter for his sub, that sub must play six consecutive defensive outs (three during tournament play) and bat once. The same requirement is not levied on the starter before he can be removed for a substitute. He could lead off the game with an at-bat, then be removed for a defensive sub in the bottom of the first. As long as he comes back in the game later to meet his six (three in tournament) defensive outs, he's good to go.

As for this comment you made--+Say I did, and he/she puts in the sub, then pulls that sub and in puts another sub the same way. Now I have 3 players who need a bat to meet MRP--+this can't legally happen in LL anymore. Here's why not:

Regular season: Starter1 is removed by Sub1 before Starter1 gets his at-bat. Sub2 then removes Sub1 before Sub1 gets his at-bat. Sub1 cannot reenter later to get his one at-bat because subs are not allowed to reenter. Only starters can. But Starter1 cannot reenter either because his sub, Sub1, never met the reentry requirement. So what happens? Both Starter1 and Sub1 fail to meet their one at-bat in the game, so they must start the next game and play six defensive outs and two at-bats before they can be removed by subs. (This all assumes you're not using Continuous Batting Order; under CBO, subs are allowed to reenter the game).

Tournament season: Starter1 is removed by Sub1 before Starter1 gets his at-bat. Manager then wants to enter Sub2 for Sub1 before Sub1 meets MPR. Can't happen. Tournament rule 10c does not allow for a sub to be removed until he meets MPR.

Cheers, Manny

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Steve - Mainer

10 posts since
May 30, 2007

5. Aug 27, 2007 6:19 PM

in response to: Manny_A

Re: Rule clarification

I brought this up here because I remember escalating this 3 years or s ago when the rule changed to its current form.

There were hole sin it and I wanted clarification before going over it with my crews. I went up the chain (Bristol) and was told the starter was to ALSO complete MPR before being pulled.

But you know as well as I do that if you call again the next night, you may get a different answer.

I just wanted to know what the masses are doing. Thanks for the input.

Steve

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Michael_Taylor

49 posts since
May 25, 2007

6. Aug 28, 2007 10:04 PM

in response to: Steve - Mainer

Re: Rule clarification

In a face to face discussion with Andy K. he says the starter does not have to meet MPR before coming out. He does have to a some point. Any subs must meet theirs before they can be subbed for.

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