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255013 Views 1,829 Replies Latest reply: Nov 12, 2008 10:05 AM by michaelmack33 RSS Go to original post 1 2 3 4 5 ... 122 Previous Next
  • Old concord runner Rookie 6 posts since
    Nov 20, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    30. Nov 23, 2007 5:37 AM (in response to NERunner)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

     

    Name calling have played a tremendously powerful role in the history of the world.  They have ruined reputations, sent others to prison cells, and made men mad enough to enter battle and slaughter their fellowmen. The name-calling technique links a person, or idea, to a negative symbol. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative symbol, instead of looking at the available evidence. I have to agree with Spiridon woman wheelchairs and iPods are all equally distracting and dangerous on the road. But I must add male runners in the list as well. I think the people who were running races back in the 70's with their dogs on or off a leash should still be ban.  Let's keep the rest in road racing.;-)

     

     

  • 951runner Amateur 24 posts since
    Aug 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    31. Nov 23, 2007 6:17 AM (in response to simoman)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

     

    I agree.And what is with all this telling people what they "should and shouldn't do/need to do...." etc.We are individuals and we  run for many different reasons.And as far as Katie Holme's time in NY...AWESOME JOB.There is no shame in running a 6 hour marathon.Or a 10 hour one for that matter.It's the persons' spirit ,and fact that they are in that 1% population of the world that has the courage to do this, that counts.How dare anyone sit on this board and criticize someone else's time.They don't have that right.

     

     

    Dress like a turkey,wear an ipod,socoalize,talk to everyone or talk to nobody .Run your own race.Just be aware of your surroundigs  and use  common sense and courtesy in a race.Don't we sign something anyway that says we don't hold the race responsible for whatever happens out there?:p

     

     

  • NERunner Amateur 8 posts since
    Nov 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    32. Nov 23, 2007 6:45 AM (in response to JR007)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

    JR007; now that's the first thing you have said that I agree with.  Although I despise the rule (and somewhat despise supports of the rule) prohibiting iPods and other similar devices during road races, it is a rule and should be adhered to.  And I further agree that no one should be using their time from USATF sanctioned races in which they used an iPod to qualify for another race; cheating is cheating.

     

     

     

     

    In fact, this is such a big violation of USATF rules that race directors should begin investing in on course monitoring equipment to identify runners who violate this rule and disqualify those runners from the race.

     

     

  • NHSenior Legend 387 posts since
    Nov 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    33. Nov 23, 2007 5:27 PM (in response to NERunner)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

    <<<<"In fact, this is such a big violation of USATF rules that race directors should begin investing in on course monitoring equipment to identify runners who violate this rule and disqualify those runners from the race. "

     

     

     

     

     

    I really have to laugh at the comments (pro and con) related to the "how to" enforce a ban. What absolutely astounds me is the comments from race personnel connected with larger races. I understand why runners who don't volunteer for anything at a race are always asking question (very accusing ones most often) about that which they would know IF they volunteered for other than a water stop. But some of these supposed RDs are really very small thinkers in that they think every action has to be complicated.

     

     

    Here are some typical comments. "How would they ever enforce it?, "They'll never stop it all". The latter being the stupidest thing that can ever be said as a retort to stopping anything. Hello, you don't need to stop it all. You just need to stop most of it.

     

     

    While the ban is about "cheating" to some degree, it is more about reducing the odds on safety issues, and whether the opponents of the ban like it or not, ipods are hundreds of times more of a risk than all the other distractionary risks tossed out by opponents to muddy the waters. Deaf people live with having to be more aware of thier surroundings as a way of life, so saying they don't pay attention is not reality. Deaf people observe so much more than you or I because they have to. Most races by a huge factor (this isn't just about large races) don't have wheelchair racers.

     

     

    Anyway, you don't have to find and ban all those in a race. Human nature will take care of that. All the race has to do is:

     

     

    1) Have the "waiver" state that if a runner is viewed and photographed "possessing" a ban device in the race, the runner agrees that they will pay (have charged to their credit card or whatever) a special fee of $300 or $400.

     

     

    2) Have a person with a clipboard on the course (at an unlikely spot) writing down a few numbers with a camcorder running full time. I've also found that the race hired photo people who take pictures of everyone to sell capture phenomenally clear shots of al the violators.

     

     

    Then you just slam a few on the runners with the heafty fee, publicize it and only the profoundly stupid with continue bring ipod to a race. Remember the goal is not to engage is a silly continuous game with the runners by disqualifying them, as many don't care about that. The goal is to STOP the use. Human nature will do that.

     

     

    The "possessing" business is so runners don't get the option to jerk around race officials with "Oh, I wasn't wearing it". This isn't a game folks.

     

     

    Oh, and before someone comments that my suggestion isn't "Fair". This isn't about "fair". When a person agrees to do something and then goes back on their word, they relinquish any right to be treated with either fairness or courtesy. I also don't ever feel a need to pressured into being "fair" with those who knowingly put themselves in harms way by electing to chose to do something they had the option of not doing.

  • Spiridon Amateur 21 posts since
    Nov 21, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    34. Nov 23, 2007 8:34 AM (in response to wonderwoman32)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

     

    Wonder women, a man with ONE Leg hops. He most likely had a Carbon fiber composite leg along with the one he was born with. Biohybrid carbon fiber composites are increasingly being used in artificial limbs, largely because of their superior strength to weight characteristics. Carbon fiber springs are acknowledged to be the most effective at storing and releasing energy in running. It enables Paralympics to complete the 100 meter dash within about one second of the Olympic record. We purest had our own marathon, but it's against federal and state laws for us to go back to 1966.  People whose limbs are damaged by birth or life's hard knocks have the Paralympics. Why not Womathon's and ipodathons as well as the original marathons? And how about a no loser-athons were everyone's time is the same. Is seems that all of you are searching for an advantage in order to move up and elbow elite runners from out in front with carbon fiber, laws and ipods. You're only superior to us if you beat us with out your technology.  It appears that all that indoor running on treadmills and drinking vitamin water has softened the whole lot of you. So, why not have the USATF water down racing even more? Wonder Women you win put it all in a marathon. But until you ban timed race, my time will be faster then yours... Yes, I will go back to my cave now, just as long as you don't revitalized it and make it a beauty, fun, amazing thing.

     

     

  • NHSenior Legend 387 posts since
    Nov 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    35. Nov 23, 2007 9:00 AM (in response to 951runner)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

    <<<<Don't we sign something anyway that says we don't hold the race responsible for whatever happens out there?:p

     

    I'm using the term YOU as a general reference to the running community and necessarily about the poster to which I'm replying.

     

    This isn't about just YOU. If some of you don't like my implied tone then don't be an "It's all about ME" person.

     

     

    Regardless of what you sign, if you are hurt seriously you and your lawyers will still come after the race and that will cost the race and the insurance company money and time. You see that sort of thing regularly on the news where some idiot who clearly has no case, hires a high profile lawyer just to get a "settlement". The odds say YOU would not do the honorable thing and leave the insurance company and race alone.

     

     

    Even more meaningful to me as a race director is my exposure to having my apparent legal protection stripped away because I (the race) am accused of negligence when YOU cause injury to someone else. I can not in good conscious claim I didn't know that allowing ban devices into a race was a bad idea and practice. Even if I lied about that, the other runner's lawyer (the one YOU caused injury to) would claim I (the race) "should have known that a serious hazard existed". And their lawyer, unlike most you runners, will have access to the risk statistics of the insurance companies and push the risk factor that you the ipod user, are choosing to ignore because it suites your position.

     

     

    BTW, you can always vote with your feet and not attend races that ban IPODs. But then since most of the races that will be doing the banning early on are races that sell out, it is with great glee that I say, "stay home". There will be hundreds or thousand (depending on the size of the race) who will gladly take your place. Why, because of human nature. Most runners run for running first, the music is an ad on and secondary. We can listen to music almost anywhere, but we can't always find the best races if start to limit our options.

  • wonderwoman32 Rookie 7 posts since
    Sep 28, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    36. Nov 23, 2007 10:56 AM (in response to JR007)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

     

    JR007, I'd love for you to explain how this is cheating - my wearing an iPod. Seriously? That's a strong term for having music accompany you on a race. I don't believe we can compare running with an iPod to say - steroids? Which is ligitimate cheating? I am not in contention to win the race, I just qualified. AND furthermore, I have run races without my iPod as well and find I prefer with it. My timing is not significantly different when I run with as opposed to without.

     

     

    I understand not allowing elites to have anything extra - they must all start on the same level. AND they have their own start time at road races so they already have separate rules than the rest of us. But for your average marathon runner out there to beat their own time and not a contender to be on the top 3 medal stand at the end the rule is a bit much. I am sure I am not the only person who qualified with an iPod. I'm sure those who didn't qualify without one don't care. They know music would not have given them a qualifying time, you're either that fast or you're not.

     

     

    You are right though about two things - maybe someone from USATF can get on here and thoroughly explain the logic and how they decided on the rule? And why it doesn't also ban the many other devices people use during road races? And there is so much going on in a tri it is not a good idea there, I don't use my iPod in triathlon. 

     

     

  • JR007 Amateur 51 posts since
    Nov 18, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    37. Nov 23, 2007 11:47 AM (in response to wonderwoman32)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

     

    This is my train of thought (maybe I'm wrong, someone tell me if I am). To qualify for the Boston marathon you had to run a certain time under the rules of the marathon. Ipods are illegal in marathons. A rule. By wearing an ipod you are breaking a rule. When someone knowingly breaks a rule they are cheating.

     

     

    I can't say whether the persons place that you took would care or not (my guess is that he would rather run in it than not). I'm not even saying that the ipod helped you (although you said it gave you an oopmph going up a hill). I  know that others that wore an ipod in a marathon and qualified for the Boston marathon cheated. As I said before, while it may be  a stupid rule, it's still a rule. Does the USTAF have a list of important rules and unimportant rules?

     

     

    As I said before, run with your music if you want. Run your own race.

     

     

    I would  also like to apologize to Katie Holms for mocking her time. I must ask though, does running a marathon take courage? Fire fighters, relief workers in Africa, the Coast guard all seem to have courage to me. Marathon runners work hard and have a certain spirit but I don't know that courage is a good adjective. Also, at what point is someone running a marathon and at what point are they walking one? Does walking a marathon and running in one take the same amount of training?

     

     

  • 951runner Amateur 24 posts since
    Aug 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    38. Nov 23, 2007 11:58 AM (in response to JR007)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

     

    Just my opinion,but finishing a marathon period,be it via a walk,run,walk/run ,wheelchair,or crawling for that matter  takes guts,courage,determination or whatever adjective you want to give it.Again,it is not for another to judge what that finish line represents to that individual.The vast majority of us will not qualify for Boston,let alone a spot on an Olympic team trial,so therefore we run,walk or whatever for our own reasons.When we finish it is for our own personal satifaction.

     

     

    And if walk/run is good enough for Jeff Galloway,it sure as heck is good enough for me!

     

     

  • NERunner Amateur 8 posts since
    Nov 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    39. Nov 23, 2007 12:21 PM (in response to NHSenior)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

    NHSENIOR; why are you limiting yourself and the other whacko race directors that share your warped sense of reasoning (I use the term reasoning very loosely) to only going after iPod rule breakers?  After all, for the good of the sport shouldn't you be concerned with any and all infractions of the USATF Rules.  Now I must admit, I never read the USATF Rules prior to the rule at hand (144.3b) until a couple of months ago, but here are a couple of others I have witnessed during my 12 plus years of running; (1) runners wearing their bib on their back (Rule 143.7) and runners receiving refreshments outside of refreshment stations (Rule 241).  You could hire some college kids to catch runners on any Rule violation and give them a share of the fines you collect; with the remaining amount going to the race director.  This would certainly encourage the race directors for those larger races as you put it to get on the NHSENIOR soapbox and start enforcing the USATF's Rules.

     

    But really, you must be joking (as I am) right???  Fine runners for a Rule violation???  You want to use the USATF's Rules for conducting a road race, but your use your own self-serving method for dealing with rule breakers.  How about 30 days in jail or 30 lashes?  Runners who do not comply with USATF Rules are subject to disqualification; nothing more.

     

     

    What do you mean by, "While the ban is about cheating to some degree"???  The prohibition ("ban") by the USATF is under Rule 144, Assistance to Athletes.  Runners who use iPods during USATF sanctioned events are cheating.  That's a fact, sorry Wonderwoman32.  Any runner who knowing (or unknowingly) runs a USATF sanctioned event and uses an iPod is cheating according to USATF Rules. 

     

     

    I love this statement, "it is more about reducing the odds on safety issues."  So when the iPod camp requests data to support this claim there is none; at least nothing that has happened during a USATF event; because WE all know if you had any creditable event to point to it would have been posted on every one of these forums about this topic.  But maybe you can answer this, if race directors are concerned about the safety of runners why do you allow races to start when the weather has road conditions unsafe, ice and/or snow in New England?  Or races on roads that are under repair?  How about heavy rain where visibility is extremely bad?

     

     

    IPods are "hundreds of times more of risk."  Please by all means, substantiate this statement?  Present your data here.  We would all love to hear from a big time race director.

     

     

    No one on this forum has said that deaf people don't pay attention.  This was only raised in the context of hearing (or missing) announcements.

     

     

    As far as your post regarding lawsuits; I think this has made things worse for race directors.  What the USATF is saying is we don't think the waivers are worth a damn so we are going to prohibit these devices for safety.  So now they've opened themselves up for legal action for non-related iPod accidents.

     

     

    Please be sure to provide us your data on the "hundreds of times more risk."  Although, I'm betting we won't be seeing anything substantial from you and you'll just go away. 

     

     

  • 951runner Amateur 24 posts since
    Aug 16, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    40. Nov 23, 2007 1:03 PM (in response to Spiridon)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

    Oh noooooooooooooooooooo the cheating thing I am LMAO.I'm sorry.You either have the athletic ability or you don't.So I guess gus,beans,shotblox and Gatorade are all ways to help us cheat since they enhance performance?Puhleeze......:_|

  • NHSenior Legend 387 posts since
    Nov 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    41. Nov 23, 2007 5:39 PM (in response to NERunner)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

    You really make this tiring. There is not one statistic that you would not disbelieve given the agenda of wanting to use headphones. I wonder what agenda you will "honestly" ascribe to the RD's for wading into this pile of dung. Has that every crossed your one-side mind? Why would we do this?

     

    Anyway, your display of your information processing logic makes giving you anything more complicated a waste of many people's time, mine in particular.

     

     

    For instance, you ask.

     

     

    <<" NHSENIOR; why are you limiting yourself and the other whacko race directors that share your warped sense of reasoning (I use the term reasoning very loosely) to only going after iPod rule breakers? After all, for the good of the sport shouldn't you be concerned with any and all infractions of the USATF Rules.

     

     

    I've never heard of anyone who can be effective trying to solve or even act on ALL things, yet you seriously imply that RDs should do that.

     

     

    Then you further regale us with your lack of being able to figure out a simple answer to what should be obvious to most people.

     

     

    You ask.

     

     

    <<<<<. But maybe you can answer this, if race directors are concerned about the safety of runners why do you allow races to start when the weather has road conditions unsafe, ice and/or snow in New England? Or races on roads that are under repair? How about heavy rain where visibility is extremely bad?

     

     

    Because I have no access to magic, so short of cancelling the races, there is nothing that can be done about what you ask.

     

     

    But, cheer up. There will be one less "wacho" RD to give you grief. As of last month, my ten years of managing races was over. (my option completely)

     

     

    And yes, I'm dodging your request of proof, and you can trot that out as proof that the wacko RDs are FOS. Though one could ask why are are RDs doing this? and I would hope that any reasonable folks who might side with you would question your conclusion for the "why?"

  • NHSenior Legend 387 posts since
    Nov 23, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    42. Nov 23, 2007 5:12 PM (in response to NHSenior)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

    I said the following in a previous message.

     

    <<< Because I have no access to magic, so short of canceling the races, there is nothing that can be done about what you ask.

     

    I suppose that just to save time for others and to remove a possible incorrect point you (NERunner) might try to make, I'll ask you to explain to those who don't know why very very few races are ever canceled. AND I would not want you to let others (who don't know why) think that it is possible to cancel races with the idea of rescheduling or that the refund of entry fees or deferring entry (without a new entry fee) is not even close to possible.

  • JR007 Amateur 51 posts since
    Nov 18, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    43. Feb 15, 2008 8:55 PM (in response to 951runner)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing
  • Migo Amateur 12 posts since
    Nov 20, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    44. Nov 24, 2007 6:35 AM (in response to Active Toby)
    Re: The iPod conflict brews in racing

    Im going to guess the same people that don't want you to wear an iPod running also support the "nanny state" and the government running the rest of our lives. No one can be personally responsible and decide for themselves someone "The Nanny" has to do it for them because people are just too dumb to know whats best for them.  I've never worn my iPod in a race and I rarely wear it when I train but we're all adults and if somone wants to wear it they should be allowed and the rest well....should mind their business.

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