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Click to view PastorB's profile Rookie 1 posts since
Jun 8, 2006

Aug 31, 2006 5:07 PM

Glucosamine question

Glucosamine has been recommended to me to reduce joint aches. I'm 49, male, still a bit overweight, run 15-20 miles per week and am training for my first 1/2 marathon (Chicago on Oct. 1st). I've come through knee injuries a couple years ago but haven't been able to run two days in a row since the injury or the knees and ankles rebel with great prejudice. My questions are:

1) Is Glucosmine as good as folks tell me?
2) What are the dosage recommendations? (I have Gucosamine sulfate 1500 mg + MSM 1500 mg from Sam's Club "Member's Mark" brand.)

I appreciate any help.
Click to view bigapplepie's profile We're Not Worthy 2,636 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
1. Aug 31, 2006 5:49 PM in response to: PastorB
My chiropractor thinks chrondroitin is the key to a good Glucosamine supplement, so I recommend Glucosamine, Chrondrotin and MSM.

He recommends 1500mg per day.

It works, its great and everyone who has tried it seems to think the same thing.

I know that in the UK its being plugged in everything.
Click to view merigayle's profile Legend 1,586 posts since
Aug 15, 2007
2. Aug 31, 2006 6:27 PM in response to: PastorB
I take one of the combos of gluc/chondr/msm
After about 8 weeks i saw a HUGE difference in my knees at the end of long runs. It was amazing. I am a firm believer!
Click to view reboot's profile Legend 398 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
3. Aug 31, 2006 7:13 PM in response to: PastorB
I believe the research indicates it works no better than a placebo. The placebo however, worked well in about 30% of the individuals. If the placebo effect works for you then it is probably a good product for you.

Sore knees, even for an overweight runner, is not normal or necessary. There are a number of possible reasons. While you may want to look for a solution in a pill, there may be better solutions.

First, make sure you are not ramping up your training too fast. Back off some and give your knees a chance to recover then resume taking care to not overly stress your knees.

As well, embark on a complimentary set of exercises that will strengthen the surrounding structures of the knees.

You should consider seeing a physiotherapist that specializes in sports medicine for a gait analysis and possible custom orthotics.

In conjunction with the above, visit a reputable running store for their recommendation and fitting of shoes.

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gotta run...
Click to view RunstheBitterroot's profile Legend 591 posts since
Aug 14, 2007
4. Aug 31, 2006 10:09 PM in response to: PastorB
It would be interesting to know if even the placebo effect is in effect, personal testamony is unreliable even in the most honest of individuals. I use this Glucosamine or any other supplement with outrages unsupported claims example here. Knee pain ends after a period of using this stuff, was it the supplement or placebo effect? Certainly there could be more questions such as "had I not used this supplement during this period, would the condition still have cleared up on it's own accord? Was there something else that I was doing different during the time that I was using this supplement? It would be easy to say "well I have had this condition for a year and it wasn't until I started using Glucosamine for x number of months before it got better" Still the question still remains, would it have cleared up anyway? There are no definitive double blinded studies that shows that it actually works. This stuff is sold on personal testamony and words that allude to it's affectiveness. Has a certified medical doctor recommended this, a chiropractioner is not a certified medical doctor. That stuff is expensive, it probably does not work, perhaps even as a placebo. If it did work it would be concidered a drug, but still remains a food supplement.
Perhaps looking into a reduction in miles for awhile, insert some walking, loose a little weight and build from there might allow time for your knees and ankles to recover properly. Select softer surfaces a variable terrain too can help in reducing the stress off running. Slowing pace a bit can help a bit too. Good Luck, Larry

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"If you see a man running up a mountain trail in Montana with a fly pole attached to his back, you are probably lost. LDD
Click to view merigayle's profile Legend 1,586 posts since
Aug 15, 2007
5. Sep 1, 2006 6:18 AM in response to: PastorB
The American Arthritis Foundation wholey supports taking the supplement and many doctors I know do tell their patients to take the supplement.

[i]Arthritis Today Special Report
Good News for Knees
Arthritis Today, JANUARY-FEBRUARY 2006
by Sara Altshul

Glucosamine and chondroitin have been on the radar screen of arthritis researchers for a decade. For most of that time, these natural substances have been viewed with a skeptical eye. Early but inconclusive evidence suggested glucosamine helped repair cartilage damage.

Early studies showing positive results were sponsored by glucosamine manufacturers, notes Beth Anne Biggee, MD, a researcher at Tufts-New England Medical Center in Boston. Non-industry funded studies were small and produced negative findings, such as the 12-week study Dr. Biggee and her team did in 2004. Her study of 205 people concluded that glucosamine was no more effective than placebo.

?This disparity invited skepticism. We needed the results of the two-year Glucosamine-chrondroitin Arthritis Intervention Trial (GAIT) to know whether glucosamine was effective,? says Dr. Biggee.

And now, the results are in. GAIT measured the effects of taking glucosamine alone, chondroitin alone, a glucosamine-chondroitin combination, and celecoxib alone against placebo in 1,583 people with either mild or moderate-to-severe pain from knee OA.

Results show that the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin is better than placebo, but the benefits appear to depend on pain severity.

Mild pain. The glucosamine and chondroitin combination did not show effectiveness for people with mild pain. Sixty-three percent of those with mild pain responded to the glucosamine and chondroitin combo, and 62 percent responded to the placebo.

Moderate-to-severe pain. Of the people with moderate-to-severe knee OA pain, 79 percent who took the glucosamine-chondroitin combo experienced pain relief, compared with 66 percent who took glucosamine alone, 61 percent who took chondroitin alone, and 54 percent who took placebo. ?The people with moderate-to-severe pain who took glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate together showed significant improvement in their knee pain,? says lead author Daniel O. Clegg, MD, professor of medicine and chief of the division of rheumatology at the University of Utah School of Medicine in Salt Lake City, one of 16 rheumatology centers involved in the NIH-sponsored GAIT.

The results of a second smaller trial, called the GUIDE trial, were also announced recently. Conducted in Spain and Portugal, the six-month-long study measured the effects of a 1,500-mg daily dose of glucosamine against a 3,000-mg daily dose of acetaminophen (Tylenol) or placebo in 318 people with knee OA. The researchers concluded that glucosamine relieved pain significantly better than the acetaminophen or placebo.

?Glucosamine is a safe compound, and its use should be considered in the early stages of OA,? says Gabriel Herrero-Beaumont, MD, a researcher at Fundacion Jimenez Diaz, a hospital in Madrid, Spain, and lead author of the GUIDE trial.

Researchers still don?t know exactly how glucosamine or chondroitin work, says Dr. Clegg. Studies on glucosamine and chondroitin are moving in the opposite direction of pharmaceutical studies. Pharmaceutical companies usually find and patent a chemical that produces a certain known effect, then test it in animals before people. Glucosamine and chondroitin were used by people first, so scientists already knew it was safe; now they?ve studied effectiveness, and next they will study exactly how it works. ?Scientists and funding agencies have been awaiting the GAIT results before contributing resources to evaluate biologic actions of these agents,? says Dr. Clegg.

How You Can Use this News

Interested in trying glucosamine and chondroitin? First discuss all treatment options with your doctor, says Daniel O. Clegg, MD, professor of medicine, and chief of the division of rheumatology at the University of Utah School of Medicine in Salt Lake City.

?Glucosamine and chondroitin may be another effective therapeutic option for managing pain in select OA patients but recent positive study results do not change the cornerstones of OA management: education, exercise, physical therapy, weight reduction (if appropriate) and simple analgesics,? he says.

If you get the green light, look for supplements containing a combination of 500-mg glucosamine and 400-mg chondroitin ? and take three times a day. Be aware you may not notice an effect until several days or weeks after starting glucosamine.
---------------------------------------------------

Arthritis Foundation Statement on the Glucosamine/chondroitin Arthritis Intervention Trial
February 2006
Summary
The long-awaited results of the Glucosamine/chondroitin Arthritis Intervention Trial (GAIT) have now been published in the New England Journal of Medicine. This 24-week study was conducted to assess the safety and efficacy of glucosamine and chondroitin in the management of pain in knee osteoarthritis (OA). While the study overall concluded that glucosamine and chondroitin were not better than placebo in reducing knee pain in the majority of people with OA, it did find that the combination of the two supplements provided significant pain relief for people with moderate-to-severe knee OA. Based on the findings from this study, the Arthritis Foundation recommends that individuals with knee OA speak to their doctors about whether combined glucosamine-chondroitin therapy might be a beneficial addition to their overall treatment plans.

Full Statement
Over the past decade, the dietary supplements glucosamine and chondroitin have been widely promoted as an effective form of treatment to relieve the pain associated with knee OA. Osteoarthritis is one of the most prevalent and disabling forms of arthritis, affecting 21 million people. As the population ages, OA prevalence is predicted to surge over the next two decades. Arthritis is already the leading cause of disability in this country, costing more than $86 billion in medical care and indirect expenses, including lost wages and production. Effective treatments mean relief from the debilitating pain of OA and the ability to retain quality of life, employment and independence.

The Glucosamine/chondroitin Arthritis Intervention Trial (GAIT) ? the most comprehensive clinical trial of these agents to date ? is a landmark study conducted to better define the role of glucosamine and chondroitin in the treatment of knee OA. Results from GAIT were published in the New England Journal of Medicine February 23, 2006.

Funded by the National Institutes of Health and conducted at 16 U.S. rheumatology centers, GAIT was designed to rigorously evaluate the efficacy and safety of these agents alone and in combination when taken over a 24-week period. The study measured the effects of taking glucosamine alone, chondroitin alone, a glucosamine-chondroitin combination or celecoxib alone against placebo in 1,258 people with mild or moderate-to-severe pain from knee OA.

Key findings of the study:

* The more severe the pain, the better the response.< People with moderate-to-severe knee OA pain experienced 25 percent greater pain relief than those taking other treatments. Only a small number of people ? 22 percent of all study participants - were in the moderate-to-severe subgroup. Further studies to better understand and confirm the benefit in this group of people are needed.
* The combination is important. Even among the moderate-to-severe group, the improvement in pain was only observed in people receiving the glucosamine-chondroitin combination therapy; no significant benefit was detected with glucosamine or chondroitin alone.
* No benefit was observed in people with mild knee OA pain. The glucosamine-chondroitin combination showed no greater effectiveness than placebo in people with mild knee OA pain. The majority ­? 78 percent ? of study participants had mild pain at baseline. The explanations as to why pain differences were found in the moderate-to severe OA pain group and not those with mild pain are not clear.
* Side effects were minimal.No differences in adverse events were observed between the study groups.


[/i]
Click to view maryt091's profile Legend 806 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
6. Sep 1, 2006 6:25 AM in response to: PastorB
My doctor was involved in one of the clinical trials and recommends the use of chondroitin sulfate and glucosamine combned to his patients with moderate to severe knee pain. MSM seems to help some patients in combination with the others.

The dose is 500 mg glucosamine, 400mg chondroitin, 500mg MSM 3 times per day. That's 1500mg, 1200mg, 1500 mg total.

One of the problems with some of the clinical trials that did not show improvement is that they included people with all types of knee pain, and mild to severe. The way these supplements are thought to work is to help build cartilage. So, if your pain is caused by a cartilage problem (my cartilage on scoping, was 75% gone in some places, and almost down to bone in others), these may help a lot. If your pain is caused by a torn ligament, faulty tracking, or it's really an ITBand issue - of course the supplements will do little to help that - they are not anti-inflammatories, or pain pills.
Click to view SuburbanDad's profile Expert 40 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
7. Sep 1, 2006 11:12 AM in response to: PastorB
I also had sore knees when ramping up for my first HM earlier this year. All I did was ice them after a run. No drugs other than the occasional aspirin. The HM went fine. I eased back on the mileage after the race and the soreness went away. I am training for my 2nd HM next weekend and have built the mileage up a bit more gradually and on a better base (6 months vs. only 3 months for the first one). No soreness at all.

I understand that a diet rich in olive oil helps prevent joint soreness but do not have a reference on this handy.
Click to view FunkyGuitarGirl's profile Amateur 17 posts since
Jul 22, 2006
8. Sep 7, 2006 12:57 PM in response to: PastorB
I just had my yearly physical and after my doctor CHEERED to hear that I was running three times a week and have not had a cigarette in four days, she suggested that I take a glucosamine/chondoitin supplement to help rebuild cartilage so I can continue to run. I am 38 years old and am in the healthy weight range for my height but I want to remain as fit as possible. So I went out and picked some up... seems like it can't hurt if I do not abuse dosage recommendations.
Click to view CSuzette's profile Legend 290 posts since
Apr 8, 2005
9. Sep 7, 2006 3:58 PM in response to: PastorB
Glucosamine is actually L-Glutamine bound to glucose.

L-Glutamine has all kinds of wonderful health benefits including being an excellent recovery aid and works also to build strong bones and muscles. I would say it could definitely help build the cartilage in joints. I think it is also an antinflammatory.

I would take the straight L-Glutamine powder in water rather than getting it from the glucosamine. Probably cheaper, too.
Click to view FunkyGuitarGirl's profile Amateur 17 posts since
Jul 22, 2006
10. Sep 7, 2006 11:51 PM in response to: PastorB
yeah..

doc was specific about getting the combo...and since wrecking my knees was a BIG part of my initial hesitation with running, I will go with that advice.

Will keep you all posted on the results...

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FunkyRunnerGirl
Click to view tarpon's profile Legend 357 posts since
Nov 29, 2007
11. Sep 8, 2006 9:24 AM in response to: PastorB
I used to be in the rheumatology field (research biochemist). For every study that has shown benefit, there is another that says nope.

Stuff is a lotta $, but if it makes you happy...

To the original poster; my advice would be to go to a sports physio person and bet a litteny of knee/ankle stregthening exercises. Do them religously, you will notice a benefit amost imediately. Keep taking your pills too if you want, can't hurt.

Good luck
Click to view merigayle's profile Legend 1,586 posts since
Aug 15, 2007
12. Sep 8, 2006 10:09 AM in response to: PastorB
quote:<HR>Originally posted by webfoot:
[b]
Stuff is a lotta $, but if it makes you happy...
[/b]<HR>


That's why you gotta stock up when it is on sale- especially 2 for 1 sales IMGhttp://www.coolrunning.com/forums/smile.gif[/IMG]
Click to view runNYtrails's profile Pro 121 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
13. Sep 9, 2006 2:19 PM in response to: PastorB
The Arthritis Cure by Dr Jason Theodosakis

some interesting reading and recommendation for taking
glucosamine and chondroitin.
Click to view MOW ED's profile Rookie 3 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
14. Sep 15, 2006 6:08 PM in response to: PastorB
I took it for about 6 months and thought it was helping me. I had sore knees and was overweight also. 5-9 230# AT 44Years old. I lost 50 lbs and lost the knee wraps and in a fluke just quit taking glucosamine/chondroitin. I am now about 30 dollars wealthier every month and my knees are better than ever.
This is my experience and yours may differ as we all are a bit different physically and psychologically. It is nice to think it works but it just wasn't so for me. The weight loss did it. I am now still 44 years old about 180lbs and didn't grow from 5-9 but I can run for 4 hours straight and feel pretty good. Good Luck to you in Chicago, I'm doing the marathon on the 22nd.