Very Low Fat Vegetarian Diets (Ornish, McDougall, Furhman, ETC)

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kponds

100 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

Aug 17, 2007 9:25 AM

Very Low Fat Vegetarian Diets (Ornish, McDougall, Furhman, ETC)

Hey everyone.

I've been losing weight for a year and a half now, and unfortunately, still have a significant amount to lose. I've been plateaued for the better part of the year.

Along the way I did a lot of experimenting, and discovered that a whole foods diet with around 15% protein, very little (10%) fat, and the balance carbohydrates gave me the best results in terms of: mood, desire to overeat, and general health.

I did it for about a month and stopped because I was beginning marathon training and didn't want to risk having an unbalanced diet. Since then I've always wanted to go back (and the marathon is over now).

Yes, what loses weight is calorie restriction. I realize that I could lose weight eating 2500 calories a day of cheetos and mtn dew. But I'm a much happier person on the Ornish-style program.

Even on a healthy vegetarian diet with added fat, I want to overeat peanut butter bananas, toast with pesto, and smart balance. I know that fat is good. But it's a problem for me.

My main worry about these programs is what the low-fat, moderate-protein means for running performance and recovery. Does anyone have any evidence on whether this provides nutrition necessary for marathon-level training?

More importantly: Does anyone know a successful road racer (5k-marathon) who follows this type of lifestyle)?

reboot

398 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

1. Aug 17, 2007 10:06 AM

in response to: kponds

I can't think of anyone who would suggest a diet with only a 10% fat content is a healthy diet. You apparently do not find it particularly satisfying ("I want to overeat peanut butter bananas, toast with pesto, and smart balance") even though you assert that it "gave me the best results in terms of: mood, desire to overeat, and general health".

Clearly you have mixed feelings about "I'm a much happier person on the Ornish-style program". You should look carefully at the health risks associated with a very low fat diet along with what I suspect would be a rather difficult type of diet to create, and decide if you are truly "a much happier person" or are you trying to unnecessarily maintain an inconvenient and unhealthy diet.

As you pointed out, you can lose weight on 2500 calories a day regardless of their form. So, why not choose 2500 calories that are acknowledged by most experts as healthy AND fully supportive of a runner's lifestyle AND that you will enjoy?

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gotta run...

kponds

100 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

2. Dec 26, 2007 4:53 AM

in response to: kponds

No, I am perfectly happy on a low-fat diet. It's just when I eat a moderate-fat diet, I have cravings for more fat. When I don't eat foods like peanut butter, I don't crave them. When I eat a little bit of them, I crave a lot of them.

These types of diets are very healthy and have been in use for several years by a wide variety of people. I have no questions about whether this diet is healthy, only it's affects on running performance and recovery. It's not "difficult to create" at all.

Yes, I can eat 2500 calories a day of anything. I'd just like to eat the food that I enjoy the most and makes me feel the best.

To me, and I've done them both for significant periods of time, it's a lot more unnecessary and complex to weigh and write down everything that I eat, than to just eat whole foods.

My question was for people who have experience with these kinds of programs. I expected that you would be the first person to reply to this thread, and I thank you for your advice, but it doesn't really apply.

http://This message has been edited by kponds (edited Aug-17-2007).

HSunshine

196 posts since
Sep 15, 2003

3. Aug 17, 2007 12:08 PM

in response to: kponds

IMO we're each an experiment of one and if this diet makes you feel good and run well, go for it. If you do the math, 2500 calories with that % breakup is about 30 g fat and 95 g protein. As long as you make those calories really count in terms of high-quality whole foods, I bet that would be just fine. But, don't be afraid to add more fat or protein in if you feel you're not recovering well, or running well, or whatever.

I'm not sure what you mean by "successful" 5k-marathon racer, but most very fast folks I know eat a well-balanced diet and don't worry much about their weight, they're not looking for that-or-that diet since they are fit and fast to begin with. Sure, Scott Jurek is vegan but he's also a-mazing and would probably do well eating any sort of well-balanced diet. Your diet sounds pretty similar to what Kenyan elite marathoners eat in terms of percentages, so it certainly works for some folks (who have great natural ability and a strong motivation to train hard

merigayle

1,586 posts since
Aug 15, 2007

4. Aug 17, 2007 12:17 PM

in response to: kponds

Ornish's diet is one of the best diets for overall health out there.

kponds

100 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

5. Dec 26, 2007 4:53 AM

in response to: kponds

When I say successful, all I mean is that I want to set PRs and consistently improve. I'd like to BQ eventually but that is a very long term goal for me.

The reason that I specified 5k-marathon is that I know that the physiological and metabolic factors in play are very different for ultrarunners (and especially >=100 mile specialists such as Jurek), and 5k-marathon is where my interest lies.

http://This message has been edited by kponds (edited Aug-17-2007).

reboot

398 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

6. Aug 17, 2007 5:30 PM

in response to: kponds

quote:<HR>Originally posted by merigayle:
Ornish's diet is one of the best diets for overall health out there. <HR>

Not a universal evaluation of the diet. The following is from a "Nutrition Fact Sheet: Dean Ornish's Life Choice Program" produced by Northwestern University, Department of Preventive Medicine.

quote:<HR>Comments:

* Potential nutritional problems:
o Potential essential fatty acid deficiency considering the very low dietary fat restriction.
o Possible gastrointestinal distress such as diarrhea due to the high fiber content of the Life Choice Diet.
o Increased risk of osteoporosis due to inadequate calcium and vitamin D intake.
* Restrictions on plant oils, nuts and fatty fish, foods known to be cardioprotective by many health experts, are contrary to USDA 2005 Dietary Guideline Recommendations.
* High volume of fiber-rich foods (fiber content of Ornish's diet is nearly twice that recommended by the USDA Food Guide Pyramid) may cause gastrointestinal distress and decreased nutrient absorption in the gut.
* Avoidance of sugar, salt and fat may be unpalatable for some dieters.
* Focus on a very low-fat vegetarian diet can be an ongoing challenge for Americans who have little time to cook, travel often for business or dine out socially.

Reviewed 1/07<HR>

http://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/nutrition/factsheets/dean-ornish-diet.html[/URL" target="_blank">

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gotta run...

Ice Cream

602 posts since
Dec 28, 2003

7. Aug 17, 2007 5:49 PM

in response to: kponds

I went onto Ornish years ago, when i wanted to lose weight. It worked wonders and I liked the diet, so I have been keeping the low fat part of it. I do not monitor my fat intake strictly, but it is very low. I eat a lot of fruit, vegetables, beans, no fat dairy products.
As far as flavor or taste are concerned, I never liked fatty foods, like onion rings, french fries, hotdogs, hamburgers, cream sauces, etc., so I may have been at an advantage. I am in good health and consider myself a better than average runner. FWIW, I regularly BQed on that kind of diet, even when I was monitoring it diligently. I rarely buy any product where the fat level is higher than 3 grams per serving.

kponds

100 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

8. Aug 18, 2007 12:10 PM

in response to: kponds

Thanks for your contribution, reboot. I've read all the literature out there, I know how to use google. I am looking for anecdotal history from runners. I'd rather not turn this thread into an argument because that's not what it's for.

Ice Cream: Thanks! This is just the kind of information that I was looking for.

Any runners who have had a bad experience with it? Would be especially interested in hearing about this.

Ariann092

681 posts since
Jan 4, 2005

9. Aug 18, 2007 5:19 PM

in response to: kponds

I haven't tried an Ornish style diet while running, but I definitely agree it is exceptionally worthwhile in terms of weight loss without feeling deprived. I have the same issue that a moderate (30%) or even "low-fat" (20 or 25%) approach gives me the urge to binge at the same caloric intake.

Lybbe

1 posts since
Aug 20, 2006

10. Aug 21, 2007 6:38 PM

in response to: kponds

I'm like you in that I can't eat a 'little' fat. It's all or nothing with me. I follow the McDougall plan which I assume is like Ornish. I've been vegetarian all my life, vegan for the last 5 years. Started running last year and noticed performance improvements when I cleaned the fat and refined foods from my diet. I don't eat anything with a label any more. FWIW, I was a 308 pound vegetarian. A completely plant based diet ensures that you will always have lots of glycogen stores.

jumthoma

15 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

11. Aug 28, 2007 4:22 PM

in response to: kponds

Hi Lybbe,

I'm also a strict vegetarian (primarily vegan, with some flexibility for practical reasons) and I'm interested in what your experiences have been as your veganism relates to running. How long have you been running? What is your distance of specialty? I am training for my first half marathon, and I have been feeling very tired despite taking a multi-vitamin and making a concerted effort to get more protein. And like many others, it seems, I experience intense food cravings- only for things like peanut butter, olive oil, chocolate and nutritional yeast! For the first time, I'm a bit concerned about my vegetarianism. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Ice Cream

602 posts since
Dec 28, 2003

12. Aug 28, 2007 9:10 PM

in response to: kponds

quote:<HR>Originally posted by jumthoma:
Hi Lybbe,

I have been feeling very tired despite taking a multi-vitamin and making a concerted effort to get more protein.
Thanks! <HR>

Multi vitamins do not provide energy. Are you eating mor protein and reducing your carb intake in an effort to keep the calorie intake the same? If so, that is your problem. It is normal to feel more tired after a more intense effort, but increasing sleep time is normal, too. I sleep longer when I train intensely.
I eat more "filling" foods when i train ntensely: more oatmeal, and I also try to drink a lot Dehydration causes tiredness.

Ariann092

681 posts since
Jan 4, 2005

13. Aug 29, 2007 9:56 AM

in response to: kponds

quote:<HR>Originally posted by jumthoma:
Hi Lybbe,

I'm also a strict vegetarian (primarily vegan, with some flexibility for practical reasons) and I'm interested in what your experiences have been as your veganism relates to running. How long have you been running? What is your distance of specialty? I am training for my first half marathon, and I have been feeling very tired despite taking a multi-vitamin and making a concerted effort to get more protein. And like many others, it seems, I experience intense food cravings- only for things like peanut butter, olive oil, chocolate and nutritional yeast! For the first time, I'm a bit concerned about my vegetarianism. Any suggestions?

Thanks! <HR>

The answer is almost always eat more. Some people find that plant foods are too filling to really eat enough. If that's the case, reduce the amount of raw food in your diet (like huge salads) and increase the amount of cooked foods (cooked greens, beans, and whole grains). Eat more often. Eat higher calorie snacks (nuts, dried fruit, things like Clif bars). I always find that energy levels are tied to carbohydrate intake, not protein intake. I know when I'm not eating enough protein, but it doesn't show itself in tiredness, rather in poor muscle recovery or muscle growth, brain fogginess, etc. Beans seem to always be the answer in that case, I try to eat them at least twice a day. I've never had intense food cravings being a vegetarian, except for chocolate and sometimes baked goods, but those have been lifelong cravings.

jumthoma

15 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

14. Aug 29, 2007 11:51 AM

in response to: kponds

Thanks for comments.

Lybbe- I think your comment about reducing the amount of raw food and increasing the amount of cooked food and carbs is most useful and applicable. For me, vegetarianism goes hand-in-hand with eating a lot of raw foods, but perhaps this is what needs to be revised. And I have recently started eating some of the higher calorie snacks you mentioned, so that may help.

Ice Cream- Sleep is an obvious necessity, and like you said, I think the need increases with intense training. I'm glad to hear somone else say they have to increase sleep time, too because my non-runner friends don't seem to get it! I'm aware, of course, that multi-vitamins don't supply enery, but they can supply nutrients to help use energy efficiently, and that was why I mentioned them. I could probably stand to eat more carbs.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

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Aug 17, 2007 9:25 AM

Very Low Fat Vegetarian Diets (Ornish, McDougall, Furhman, ETC)

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