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Click to view Ariann092's profile Legend 681 posts since
Jan 4, 2005
30. Sep 11, 2007 1:22 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
Dogs haven't evolved unimpeded, they've been selectively bred and with a generation length significantly shorter than humans'. They've only changed in so much as humans have attempted to draw out specific traits and suppress others. There are still plenty of mutts, plenty of wild dogs, and the pure breeds who are artificially selected tend to have as much wrong with them as right with them. Not a great model for human evolution, I would say.

I don't understand the idea of "inefficient muscle." Yes, there are different types of muscle fibers and they preferentially burn fat or carbohydrates, but that has more to do with what type of movement is being done rather than a person's weight. If someone has trained their body to perform aerobically, they will be building up muscle fibers that burn fat over glycogen. I would say that's probably the goal of most runners, but it's not the exclusive goal. We still need those sprinting muscle fibers, which burn primarily glycogen, we just want them to kick in at higher speeds. All of that can only be achieved by training.

But an obese person who does not move much shouldn't have "inefficient" muscles, they just have muscles that are efficient to their purpose (and not to, say, running). Most of the calories we burn go towards our basal metabolic rate, our basic daily functions that won't stop until we're actually starving. An obese person's BMR is generally considerably higher than a thin person's, because a) they have a lot more body to function in those basic ways and b) they even often have more lean body mass (not by percentage, but by raw weight) than a thin person just by the necessity of moving around their own heavier body. Why would an obese person's muscles (and other tissues), performing basic functions, be less efficient than a thin person's? Those muscles are "in training" just as much as anybody else's. So the idea that if you take two people, of greatly varying sizes, who perform similar movements throughout the day, you would find the thinner one has a higher metabolism or can eat more and maintain their weight, is simply ludicrous.

However, many people claim it. I would imagine it's simply because they have no idea what they're eating. An old roommate of mine, a 5'8" sedentary woman who weighs around 250 pounds, once said to me, "My body knows exactly how much to eat, I stop eating when I don't need anymore calories, and I don't have any trouble maintaining my weight (I just can't lose it!)." She took this as evidence that she was eating well enough. Well, thank goodness she could maintain her weight (i.e. not gain), but she could only maintain her weight because she ate an extremely high number of calories each day, probably twice the volume of what I ate, and had absolutely no realization of that. Heavier people eat more simply to maintain their weight. All of that food goes primarily to basic metabolic processes which do not differ significantly from person to person. The fact that if they walked a mile they'd burn a higher percentage of sugar than fat is irrelevant to that issue. They'll still burn more calories walking a mile than someone who weighed less.
Click to view Biophilia's profile Pro 171 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
31. Sep 11, 2007 1:24 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by DavidD:

The best way to test yourself (body fat) is with a tape measure (hips and waist). Of course, a treadmill test that measures respiratory quotient will tell you just how much fat and sugar you burn.
<HR>


measuring the hips and waist may help a little but it's surely not accurate and is not a common way to measure body fat. The most common methods are skin folds and bioelectric impedance analysis. If you want more accuracy you can go for the DEXA scan or hydrostatic underwater weighing. And there are more methods but I'm no expert in this area. But I do know that your waist and hips aren't excluded from body water fluctuation or even muscle mass gain.

I think the respiratory quotient only give the ratio of calories from fat/protein/carbs from the diet. Not exactly sure. But you keep saying "sugar and fat" as though they are the only sources of fuel. Protein may be converted to sugar in order to be utilized but that doesn't justify ignoring it as an energy source.
Click to view Ariann092's profile Legend 681 posts since
Jan 4, 2005
32. Sep 11, 2007 1:30 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
By the way, I've been everywhere (according to impedence measurements) from low 20s% BF to upper 30s. My waist:hip measurements have always been considered beyond excellent, even when I was technically obese, because I don't store fat in my waist, the extra goes mostly to my chest, upper legs, and upper arms, then to my butt. And I have rather wide bones (pelvis, shoulders), so my waist:hip will always appear to be fantastic even if I gained fifty pounds.
Click to view Biophilia's profile Pro 171 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
33. Sep 11, 2007 1:41 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ariann:
Dogs haven't evolved unimpeded, they've been selectively bred and with a generation length significantly shorter than humans'. They've only changed in so much as humans have attempted to draw out specific traits and suppress others. There are still plenty of mutts, plenty of wild dogs, and the pure breeds who are artificially selected tend to have as much wrong with them as right with them. Not a great model for human evolution, I would say.

I don't understand the idea of "inefficient muscle." Yes, there are different types of muscle fibers and they preferentially burn fat or carbohydrates, but that has more to do with what type of movement is being done rather than a person's weight. If someone has trained their body to perform aerobically, they will be building up muscle fibers that burn fat over glycogen. I would say that's probably the goal of most runners, but it's not the exclusive goal. We still need those sprinting muscle fibers, which burn primarily glycogen, we just want them to kick in at higher speeds. All of that can only be achieved by training.

But an obese person who does not move much shouldn't have "inefficient" muscles, they just have muscles that are efficient to their purpose (and not to, say, running). Most of the calories we burn go towards our basal metabolic rate, our basic daily functions that won't stop until we're actually starving. An obese person's BMR is generally considerably higher than a thin person's, because a) they have a lot more body to function in those basic ways and b) they even often have more lean body mass (not by percentage, but by raw weight) than a thin person just by the necessity of moving around their own heavier body. Why would an obese person's muscles (and other tissues), performing basic functions, be less efficient than a thin person's? Those muscles are "in training" just as much as anybody else's. So the idea that if you take two people, of greatly varying sizes, who perform similar movements throughout the day, you would find the thinner one has a higher metabolism or can eat more and maintain their weight, is simply ludicrous.

However, many people claim it. I would imagine it's simply because they have no idea what they're eating. An old roommate of mine, a 5'8" sedentary woman who weighs around 250 pounds, once said to me, "My body knows exactly how much to eat, I stop eating when I don't need anymore calories, and I don't have any trouble maintaining my weight (I just can't lose it!)." She took this as evidence that she was eating well enough. Well, thank goodness she could maintain her weight (i.e. not gain), but she could only maintain her weight because she ate an extremely high number of calories each day, probably twice the volume of what I ate, and had absolutely no realization of that. Heavier people eat more simply to maintain their weight. All of that food goes primarily to basic metabolic processes which do not differ significantly from person to person. The fact that if they walked a mile they'd burn a higher percentage of sugar than fat is irrelevant to that issue. They'll still burn more calories walking a mile than someone who weighed less.

<HR>


our society is selecting more for people who don't store energy as fat as efficiently as others because obesity, as we all know, leads to or is a cofactor for many diseases. I'm not trying to say that we've changed as radically as the wolf.

in order to burn energy you need... stuff that can burn energy. In a very crude way, elite athletes have more of that stuff per pound of muscle. They've got more capillaries, more mitochondria, more efficient mitochondria, more metabolically related enzymes, more myoglobin to transport oxygen, less fat per pound of muscle (fat is also stored in muscle) which means more muscle per pound of muscle so to speak.

give 100kcals to a pound of muscle from an elite athlete and more of it will be converted to motion and heat than if given to a pound of muscle from a sedentary person. That sedentary person then has to do something with the extra energy so they store it.
Click to view Ariann092's profile Legend 681 posts since
Jan 4, 2005
34. Sep 11, 2007 1:41 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Biophilia:

look what happened to the evolution of the dog in the last 200 years. Things don't necessarily need 100's of thousands of years to change. And the entirety of my point was simply that 10 thousand years ago we were more likely to survive if we could store calories very efficiently. Now, in societies like ours, this ability is more likely to cause disease since food is abundant.
<HR>


Evolution by natural selection takes many generations and usually geographic isolation. In the last hundred years of "plenty" in the western world, we've only had at most a half dozen generations, so we wouldn't see much change in that time period. Also, in that same time, we've had an increase in movement between continents, so that it's become more likely for us to mate with people who come from places where there hasn't been a hundred years of plenty. If we were insects or even dogs, we might have seen a lot more change in the past hundred years, because many more generations have passed, and most species don't travel around the globe as easily as we do.

In any case, even if plenty causes disease today, you're missing the boat on "survival of the fittest." Those who come down with disease due to plenty by and large are healthy enough in their 20s through 40s to produce offspring and care for them, so their later disease makes no dent on their ability to produce healthy offspring and pass along "thrifty genes." Furthermore, those who live in places of plenty have an extremely greater chance to raise healthy offspring precisely because they are wealthy enough to afford plenty (even the bottom of the totem pole in the U.S. is much more wealthy and has a much greater expectation of having healthy children than most people in most places of the world).

In any case, if there is a thrifty gene, what we'd be talking about is its prevalence in the population - do 90% of people carry it or 40%? Or, is there no variation per se, i.e. nearly 100% or 0% carry it. What natural selection would do would be to simply change the balance - decrease the prevalence of the gene in the population. If the variation doesn't exist, though, nothing would change even as environmental pressures change. But the environmental pressure necessary to make the balance shift would mean that those who possess the thrifty gene would find themselves a) less likely to find a mate, b) less likely to reproduce at all, c) less likely to produce healthy offspring, d) less likely to be able to care for those offspring, etc. None of those conditions have been met. Being more likely to come down with diabetes when you're 70 doesn't really fit the bill, and we haven't seen the extreme rise in ill-health of young people due to obesity until this generation.
Click to view Biophilia's profile Pro 171 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
35. Sep 11, 2007 1:43 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ariann:
By the way, I've been everywhere (according to impedence measurements) from low 20s% BF to upper 30s. My waist:hip measurements have always been considered beyond excellent, even when I was technically obese, because I don't store fat in my waist, the extra goes mostly to my chest, upper legs, and upper arms, then to my butt. And I have rather wide bones (pelvis, shoulders), so my waist:hip will always appear to be fantastic even if I gained fifty pounds. <HR>


BIA is influenced by your current hydration status I know. And as you pointed out, the fact that people store fat in different places is another reason why waist and hip measurements are not an accurate way of measuring body fat.
Click to view Ariann092's profile Legend 681 posts since
Jan 4, 2005
36. Sep 11, 2007 1:48 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Biophilia:
our society is selecting more for people who don't store energy as fat as efficiently as others because obesity, as we all know, leads to or is a cofactor for many diseases. I'm not trying to say that we've changed as radically as the wolf.

in order to burn energy you need... stuff that can burn energy. In a very crude way, elite athletes have more of that stuff per pound of muscle. They've got more capillaries, more mitochondria, more efficient mitochondria, more metabolically related enzymes, more myoglobin to transport oxygen, less fat per pound of muscle (fat is also stored in muscle) which means more muscle per pound of muscle so to speak.

give 100kcals to a pound of muscle from an elite athlete and more of it will be converted to motion and heat than if given to a pound of muscle from a sedentary person. That sedentary person then has to do something with the extra energy so they store it.
<HR>


HOW is our society selecting for people who don't store energy as fat? As far as I can tell fat people are just as likely to get married and often much more likely to have children (because they are in a lower socioeconomic class and may have less education).

As reboot said, if you control for BF%, all of the issues you bring up are controlled for. We're not just taking a slice of muscle out of somebody and not counting whether or not that's really muscle or not. We're saying, if you can figure out exactly how much of a person is fat and how much is muscle tissue and how much is bone, water, etc., you can figure out exactly what their BMR is. And if it's not right around that number, there is something terribly wrong with this person and it would be obvious to them and to their physician.

Why would an athlete's muscle turn more energy to heat (assuming they're sitting still, say, watching TV next to an obese person). Do athletes tend to have higher body temperature? That is wasteful, which is exactly the opposite of what you're arguing. Why would an athlete's muscle be inefficient when it's trained for efficient use of energy? Actually inefficiency is actually an even better argument for why obese people are probably eating a **** of a lot more than they think, because their muscles waste energy and they'd need more even for basic processes. I find it unlikely either way.
Click to view Ariann092's profile Legend 681 posts since
Jan 4, 2005
37. Sep 11, 2007 1:51 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Biophilia:
BIA is influenced by your current hydration status I know. And as you pointed out, the fact that people store fat in different places is another reason why waist and hip measurements are not an accurate way of measuring body fat. <HR>


Yes, that's also true. But mine really differed because I really lost a whole lot of weight!
Click to view mtnchk1's profile Legend 286 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
38. Sep 11, 2007 1:56 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Acb8d2:
Well for those who were interested in my original question
I went back to fitday and a number of other calculators to see what could be going on and I think that FitDay was overestimating the amount of calories i was burning, so while I thought I had a 300-500 difference maybe I really only had 0-200. I also think my BF has probably dropped though my weight has not, I need a more reliable source of testing it though to be sure.

<HR>


Check this out......Fascinating!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15321646[/URL" target="_blank">

& personally, I think that WHAT you eat makes a difference!!! kinda like what octane rating fuel you put in your car makes a difference in how it runs/performs.......& also, that only using a scale is poor way of measuring health


------------------
We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time. - T.S. Eliot
Click to view Biophilia's profile Pro 171 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
39. Sep 11, 2007 2:21 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ariann:
HOW is our society selecting for people who don't store energy as fat? As far as I can tell fat people are just as likely to get married and often much more likely to have children (because they are in a lower socioeconomic class and may have less education).

As reboot said, if you control for BF%, all of the issues you bring up are controlled for. We're not just taking a slice of muscle out of somebody and not counting whether or not that's really muscle or not. We're saying, if you can figure out exactly how much of a person is fat and how much is muscle tissue and how much is bone, water, etc., you can figure out exactly what their BMR is. And if it's not right around that number, there is something terribly wrong with this person and it would be obvious to them and to their physician.

Why would an athlete's muscle turn more energy to heat (assuming they're sitting still, say, watching TV next to an obese person). Do athletes tend to have higher body temperature? That is wasteful, which is exactly the opposite of what you're arguing. Why would an athlete's muscle be inefficient when it's trained for efficient use of energy? Actually inefficiency is actually an even better argument for why obese people are probably eating a **** of a lot more than they think, because their muscles waste energy and they'd need more even for basic processes. I find it unlikely either way.
<HR>


you're making the evolution argument too complicated. Obese = more sick. More sick = less survival. Ask an insurance company if they'd rather insure a thin person or an obese person.

there is no equation that can accurately measure bmr. The most accurate equation in most cases is the harris-benedict and it's been shown to be inaccurate 33% of the time by a medically significant margin. Which means it could still be inaccurate the other 66% of the time, just not by a medically significant margin.
Click to view Ariann092's profile Legend 681 posts since
Jan 4, 2005
40. Sep 11, 2007 2:25 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Biophilia:
you're making the evolution argument too complicated. Obese = more sick. More sick = less survival. Ask an insurance company if they'd rather insure a thin person or an obese person.

there is no equation that can accurately measure bmr. The most accurate equation in most cases is the harris-benedict and it's been shown to be inaccurate 33% of the time by a medically significant margin. Which means it could still be inaccurate the other 66% of the time, just not by a medically significant margin.
<HR>


No, you're making the evolution argument too simplistic and entirely missing the point of natural selection. I don't know if you're being purposefully obtuse or what. More sick = less survival, but not necessarily at ages that matter. Insurance companies (at least life insurance) tend to insure people who are beyond child-bearing age, and their survival has minimal impact on whether or not they personally pass on their genes, because they've already done it or not done it.

The Harris-Benedict formula can't cut people up. I imagine the only way we'd be able to accurately figure out BMR would be post-mortem, because that's when we'd be able to dissect what's what inside a person. I'm sure we will get past this hurdle at some point. Not being able to do it now is irrelevant. We have much better ways of figuring out people's metabolisms anyway, it's called personal experimentation, and it's extremely inexpensive and extremely accurate.
Click to view Ariann092's profile Legend 681 posts since
Jan 4, 2005
42. Sep 11, 2007 2:36 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Acb8d2:
Should BF% be considered when calculating RMR?

<HR>


Yes, definitely. A fat cell requires a different amount of energy just to keep itself going than a muscle cell does (even if the muscle cell isn't doing anything except maintaining itself). That's why many people suggest lifting weights to raise metabolism; if you can add muscle to your frame, you'll burn more calories at rest than you otherwise would.
Click to view Biophilia's profile Pro 171 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
43. Sep 11, 2007 2:56 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ariann:
No, you're making the evolution argument too simplistic and entirely missing the point of natural selection. I don't know if you're being purposefully obtuse or what. More sick = less survival, but not necessarily at ages that matter. Insurance companies (at least life insurance) tend to insure people who are beyond child-bearing age, and their survival has minimal impact on whether or not they personally pass on their genes, because they've already done it or not done it.

The Harris-Benedict formula can't cut people up. I imagine the only way we'd be able to accurately figure out BMR would be post-mortem, because that's when we'd be able to dissect what's what inside a person. I'm sure we will get past this hurdle at some point. Not being able to do it now is irrelevant. We have much better ways of figuring out people's metabolisms anyway, it's called personal experimentation, and it's extremely inexpensive and extremely accurate.
<HR>


a young obese person is still more likely to have health problems than a young thin person. Health problems can effect the likelyhood of having children.

There are ways to measure bmr accurately but they aren't practical for most situations

if personal experimentation were an extremely accurate way of measuring bmr then the op wouldn't be having trouble figuring out her bmr.
Click to view DavidD063's profile Legend 361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007
44. Sep 11, 2007 5:44 PM in response to: Acb8d2044
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Biophilia:
measuring the hips and waist may help a little but it's surely not accurate and is not a common way to measure body fat. The most common methods are skin folds and bioelectric impedance analysis. If you want more accuracy you can go for the DEXA scan or hydrostatic underwater weighing. And there are more methods but I'm no expert in this area. But I do know that your waist and hips aren't excluded from body water fluctuation or even muscle mass gain.

I think the respiratory quotient only give the ratio of calories from fat/protein/carbs from the diet. Not exactly sure. But you keep saying "sugar and fat" as though they are the only sources of fuel. Protein may be converted to sugar in order to be utilized but that doesn't justify ignoring it as an energy source.
<HR>


Certainly, waist and hip measurement (and even the ratio) are not real accurate, but I was referring to home testing -- it gives a general idea about ones body fat when measured monthly. It's certainly better than the scale. All other devices that measure body fat have drawbacks. If people are not willing to accept 5 or 10% error rates, they should avoid them. (One problem is the hype by the companies that make all the gadgets out there.)

Respiratory quotient measures how much stored fat and sugar we are using for energy. The diet has an impact in that what you ate for the previous meal affects fat and sugar burning. Eat a high glycemic meal, for example, and it will turn down your fat burning significantly. So RQ numbers need to be considered with ones diet.

Protein is used for energy too, but in very small amounts. In addition, some amino acids can convert to sugar (with the possibility of then converting to fat).

But the issue at hand is calories, and I asked 'calories of what' and then the discussion went all different ways.