evening run followed by morning run

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gregw070

250 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

Jul 20, 2007 11:25 AM

evening run followed by morning run

I know the real answer is just to experiment for myself, but thought I'd ask anyway. How much harder is it to recover from an evening run by the next morning than it the runs were 24 hours apart.

The reason I ask is that my schedule has 9 miles on Tues and 14 on Wed. It would be very convenient to run home from work (leaving my car) and then run in the next morning. As it is, I run in to work on Wednesday to have enough time to do 14, but have to take the bus home (two buses actually), which is rather a pain. Work is 10.5 miles away, so I'd have to bump up Tuesday a little and possibly cut back Wednesday.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Greg

joev9

490 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

1. Jul 20, 2007 11:28 AM

in response to: gregw070

are these distances you run normally, or are you new to running 14 miles?

i think if you run both of them at a comfortable pace, you should be fine. i think you should expect the last few miles of the 14 to be a bit harder than your usual miles, but as long as you aren't pushing the pace you should be good.

Domenick D'Amico

6 posts since
Nov 2, 2007

2. Jul 20, 2007 11:30 AM

in response to: gregw070

Hi there,

This is good training. One of the main factors is what type of workout are you doing in the 24 hours. Are you doing a tempo run, relaxed recovery run, ect.... It is always good to get a mid week long run in for marathon training.

Hope this helps.

gregw070

250 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

3. Dec 26, 2007 5:00 AM

in response to: gregw070

quote:<HR>Originally posted by joev9:
are these distances you run normally, or are you new to running 14 miles?

i think if you run both of them at a comfortable pace, you should be fine. i think you should expect the last few miles of the 14 to be a bit harder than your usual miles, but as long as you aren't pushing the pace you should be good.<HR>

This is a bit of a step up for me, but I think I'm prepared for it. I'm planning to peak for my marathon at 70 mpw where I've peaked in the low 60s before. I've averaged 54 mpw this year (including marathon taper and recovery periods), typically doing 10-12 on Tu sometimes w/hills or intervals, 10-12 on Th usually with tempo, 18+ on Su, and shorter runs in between. I just started Pfitz 18/70 this week jumping in the fourth week and did my first ever 14 miler on a wednesday (I've run 18+ more sundays than not in the last year though). I definitely had some carryover fatigue on my 11 miles today that I'm not used to, but I think that's to be expected.

Next week looks slightly scary as I'm supposed to do 8 miles w/4 @tempo on Tues and 14 on Wednesday. The tempo is the part that worries me and I'll probably shorten it. After next week is a cutback week to 55 mpw.

Thanks for the replies.

(edited because I forgot to say thanks!)

http://This message has been edited by gregw (edited Jul-20-2007).

IceStorm213

354 posts since
Nov 1, 2005

4. Jul 20, 2007 12:54 PM

in response to: gregw070

An extra 12 hours shouldn't make a big difference, eh? What about terrain? For me, the route home is significantly uphill (14 miles) and I've often thought about running home and back once a week. I've run home a few times, but always ride my bike back the next day. I use that as my recovery. But my mileage is lower than yours.

My recollection of the Pfitz plan is that the tempo is fairly intense and the long-run is no cakewalk (20-10% slower than marathon pace, no?). Doesn't he say 3-4 days to recover from a tempo run? If so, I think I'd be inclined to run back the next morning, but keep the pace at the lower end of the range, especially if it's typical DC humid.

FWIW, I've followed Pfitz a couple times but this year I'm experimenting by limiting my long runs to 2-1/2 hours max to make sure that it doesn't affect my ability to give an honest effort the rest of the week. And if that means I don't run a single 20-miler then so be it. I'll still do a 90-minute midweek run along with a tempo and some strides. You know my story. I seem to have more endurance than speed.

Marine Corps again this year or are you trying one of the "faster" marathons to BQ?

gregw070

250 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

5. Dec 26, 2007 5:00 AM

in response to: gregw070

quote:<HR>Originally posted by martinjames:
An extra 12 hours shouldn't make a big difference, eh? What about terrain?
<HR>

It's actually a slight net downhill on the way in, but you'd never guess. It's northern virginia, so it's pretty hilly. I descend into and out of three valleys along the way.

quote:<HR>
My recollection of the Pfitz plan is that the tempo is fairly intense and the long-run is no cakewalk (20-10% slower than marathon pace, no?). Doesn't he say 3-4 days to recover from a tempo run? If so, I think I'd be inclined to run back the next morning, but keep the pace at the lower end of the range, especially if it's typical DC humid.
<HR>

I don't remember the prescription on tempos, but he only has them every other week in the endurance period and then either a tempo or VO2max once a week. He says to do the medium long runs like the long runs, but I'm going to back off a bit on that and run it like the first 14 miles of a long run (not getting to 10% below MP by the end).

quote:<HR>
FWIW, I've followed Pfitz a couple times but this year I'm experimenting by limiting my long runs to 2-1/2 hours max to make sure that it doesn't affect my ability to give an honest effort the rest of the week. And if that means I don't run a single 20-miler then so be it. I'll still do a 90-minute midweek run along with a tempo and some strides. You know my story. I seem to have more endurance than speed.

Marine Corps again this year or are you trying one of the "faster" marathons to BQ?

<HR>

Good luck. You might look at Daniel's Running Formula. He caps long runs at 2.5 hours and has a little more "quality" than Pfitz, putting some tempo portions into the long run in addition to a tempo or VO2max run during the week.

I'm planning to finally get my revenge on MCM. No better way than to BQ there. If it doesn't happen, I'll double down on the NCR trail marathon again.

http://This message has been edited by gregw (edited Jul-20-2007).

IceStorm213

354 posts since
Nov 1, 2005

6. Jul 22, 2007 10:56 AM

in response to: gregw070

Outstanding. Good luck with the back-to-back runs. The hills will be a challenge. Soon it's time to pray to the weather gods.

GeekRunner081

118 posts since
Jan 6, 2006

7. Jul 22, 2007 12:38 PM

in response to: gregw070

I do similar workouts - 8 miles with 4 at tempo in the evening and 14 the next morning - and the 14 is challenging. How challenging? If I do 20+ the morning after the 14 (only when training for a really long event), the 14 on the second day is even tougher than the 20+ on the last day. You might have to go a bit slower than you want, but the benefits of a midweek medium-long run are huge

gregw070

250 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

8. Jul 25, 2007 8:18 AM

in response to: gregw070

Well, I did the back to back thing and I'll have to say it wasn't all that easy. At 5pm, I did 10.5 home with 20 minutes at about marathon pace. It was 85 degrees, which made this considerably more work than my run into work at about 70 degrees. At 5:30 this morning I did 13.8 into work. At first, I thought it was no sweat and then about 45 minutes in it pretty quickly felt like I'd been running about 90 minutes. The last couple of miles felt like the last couple of miles of an 18-miler. I do believe it will pay off though.

Thanks for you help.

Greg

PS James, are you doing MCM also?

Jul 20, 2007 11:25 AM

evening run followed by morning run

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