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Click to view bigapplepie's profile We're Not Worthy 2,636 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
225. Aug 4, 2007 10:21 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by martinjames:
To be fair, there was no observed difference between training time and race time. The 9.6 km/hour refers to both and appears to be a simple error. I don't think speed mattered to these researchers for their limited purpose. <HR>


Shhh! Please don't interfere while I'm leaping to conclusions
Click to view DavidD063's profile Legend 361 posts since
Jan 25, 2007
226. Aug 4, 2007 11:09 AM in response to: Richard99
Is there a reference for this study? It's either not complete as copied above, or was not published in a peer-reviewed, indexed journal. As I previously stated, this informaton is nothing new. All the study showed was that a bunch of people were trained to run a marathon, and they ran it.

Cardiovascular changes always accompany muscle fiber increases due to training (just as many other physiological features adapt). Aerobic fibers are also called red because they are associated with increased vascularization. As the muscle grows, there are more blood vessels that open up, and more blood has to be pumped by the heart and arteries, etc. There is no great demarcation between the muscle system and the CV system (other than the gross anatomical features), so coming to the conclusion in the paper was misleading (and doesn't seem very professional). You can't separate 'aerobic capacity' from 'aerobic muscle fibers' in any type of evaluation, especially short term (like this study).
Click to view kemibe's profile Amateur 39 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
227. Aug 4, 2007 1:57 PM in response to: Richard99
I have a copy of the whole study. It was published in the American Journal of Physiology in April 2006. Here are portions Richard doesn't offer:

There was a trend for an increase in absolute V˙O2 max from before to after run training (3.37 vs. 3.50 l/min; P < 0.09) ... Absolute (2.43 vs. 2.28 l/min) and relative (36.0 vs. 33.6 ml/kg*min) consumption at a submaximal running
speed of 9.65 km/h was lower (P < .05) after the training program.


Translated: This, despite the very brief nature of the study and the low amount and intensity of training, represents an aerobic improvement.

The pretest V˙O2 max values were more in line with trained
recreational runners compared with typical college-age
individuals, suggesting that their cardiovascular system
was reasonably well conditioned at the beginning of the training
program. Conversely, the oxidative potential of the muscle
(citrate synthase, increase in MHC I fibers) was significantly
increased with the training program, suggesting enhanced aerobic potential.


In other words, Richard's claim that improvements were entirely due to his unique definition of "muscle factors" is, according to the very words of the authors, wrong. He's thus asked for evidence of his mistakes and though he's been given this hundreds of times, he can add one more glop of it.

JimR has asked multiple questions of Richard, many of them several times:

Can you explain, in your own words, what you mean by 'aerobic model'?

Can you explain why you are misrepresenting a study on marathon training as though it were a study on aerobic base building?

Why, in your 'powerrunning training guide' that you have published on your site, you are using Greg McMillan's intellectual material but not giving credit to Mr. McMillan for the info?


Andy, Martin, fuzz and others have given specific examples of Richard?s sloppy thinking, errors in interpretation, general inability to understand statistics, and more.

For my part, in this very thread I've deconstructed and debunked well over a dozen significant claims Richard has made over the years, probably the crown turd of them all being this:

On this page[/URL" target="_blank"> Richard writes:

"This data quite compellingly shows that increasing mileage does not benefit all runners equally."

The data he references is the average weekly mileage of a group of Swiss runners over the course of a year and their time in a single 10-mile race. Obviously there is no way to tell from one race whether anyone -- fast, slow or dead -- benefited from "increasing mileage" because
no such increases were implemented or monitored.

When this was first pointed out, Richard could have redeemed himself, at least partially, by admitting his mistake and either amending or eliminating the page on his site. But he did not. He is a liar and proud of the fact.


I would strongly suggest not answering any of Richard's intended-to-distract questions anymore, here or anywhere, and instead force him to answer any of the six or seven billion questions he has yet to answer himself. With his profound stupidity and yen for dissembling again thrown into clear view, and with everything he has written in recent months summarily shredded, Richard is in no position to demand anything in the way of info or justification from others. I'm not going to talk to him, but rather about and around him. If he cared to learn and discuss science he wouldn't be trying to hoodwink newbies in Basic Training, he'd be willing to engage my criticisms ofhim on my blog, where plenty of physiology andbiochemistry PhDs hang out. Of course, he knows he would be chewed up and spat out with dizzying speed there (Andy and others have done that quite ably on Cool Running, but the faint whiff of encouragement occasionally afforded Richard here would be completely absent in the presence of lots of working scientists).

When he goes on the offensive by flinging out baldly inane queries, ignore him and repeat some of the many questions he hasn?t addressed. In particular, his failure to define what the "aerobic model" he argues against is and his refusal to retract the non-applicable claim that "[t]his data quite compellingly shows that increasing mileage does not benefit all runners equally"[/b] are the closest thing we?ll see to ?I was wrong? from Richard.

It?s amazing that anyone can take such pride in sheer mindlessness.
Click to view jjwaverly42's profile Legend 337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
228. Aug 4, 2007 3:50 PM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard99:
martinjames,

You don't seem all that inclined to discuss physiology topics so I'll just address this single point and end it at that.

Yes, Hadd said run slow to keep fast twitch fibers from working and to maximize development of slow twitch fibers. What he said is pretty basic "aerobic base building" stuff as to maximizing slow twitch fibers. As is seen here, what Hadd said is not accurate as far as working slow twitch fibers mostly. Easy paced running resulted in significant development of the fast twitch fibers - as much development in the fast twitch fibers as in the slow twitch fibers. While this may be simply stating the completely obvious to you, it doesn't appear to be known by Hadd and others promoting a similar philosophy.


<HR>


This is such old news.
Even Hadd mentions that once your slow twitch fibers are exhausted, your body will recruit fast twitch fibers to help out. There has also been mention by other aerobic dudes about a certain type of fast twitch taking on slow-twitch characteristics due to long runs and high volume of running at heart rates that keep you using slow-twitch and in mostly fat-burning.

I think it is important to mention that HADD, Maffetone, and Parker don't want you to always be running slow, but running in a certain HR zone. You speed up over time at the same HR, as the slow-twitch, and yes fast-twitch develop (long runs), and your body learns to use fat as fuel.

--Jimmy

@@@@[/URL" target="_blank">
MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
229. Aug 4, 2007 4:42 PM in response to: Richard99
Wow, this gets even better....he edited out the part of the study that black-and-white contradicted the conclusion he wanted! Thanks Kevin, I wasn't able to access the study itself. Let's see Dick come back and defend his conclusion now.

Where are you, Dick?

"There was a trend for an increase in absolute V?O2 max from before to after run training (3.37 vs. 3.50 l/min; P < 0.09) ... Absolute (2.43 vs. 2.28 l/min) and relative (36.0 vs. 33.6 ml/kg*min) consumption at a submaximal running
speed of 9.65 km/h was lower (P < .05) after the training program."

For the audience, a P value <.05 is considered significant. So absolute and relative consuption at submaximal speed WAS significant; this indicates greater efficiency in oxygen usage...an aerobic development.

VO2max was p<.09, hence greater than .05, however as they said there was a trend and given the short duration of this experiment and the significant improvement in other aerobic factors all that may have been needed to reach significance was another week or two.
Click to view kemibe's profile Amateur 39 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
230. Aug 4, 2007 6:10 PM in response to: Richard99
Richard won't be back, at least not in this thread. As much energy as he puts into yanking his pants down, doubling over, and expelling huge clouds of acrid stupidity as he spins around the forum in mad, clumsy circles, and as well as this serves his dishonest purposes in the short term, even he inevitably runs into too large a wall of sheer reason to continue, and he's forced to buckle up and shuffle off in shame, fine speckles and splotches of ***-mud coating him and everything nearby.

He'll wait a little while, then find a new study to lie about. That's what he does and all he does. The surest way to annoy him is remind him that his life is about being a lying schmuck. I wonder if the first thing that pops into his head when he wakes up every day is "Man, 7:30 inthe morning already Iand I haven't started lying on the Interwebs yet!"
Click to view AndyHass's profile Legend 1,385 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
232. Dec 26, 2007 5:01 AM in response to: Richard99
So now all aerobic improvements you simply claim are part of muscle? You've spent a week disallowing the importance of them, now you try to dodge by claiming they're really muscle and not aerobic-related. Only you could completely ignore the interlinking nature of the two camps you try stupidly to separate.

"The pretest V?O2 max values were more in line with trained
recreational runners compared with typical college-age
individuals, suggesting that their cardiovascular system
was reasonably well conditioned at the beginning of the training
program. Conversely, the oxidative potential of the muscle
(citrate synthase, increase in MHC I fibers) was significantly
increased with the training program, suggesting enhanced aerobic potential."

The authors themself cite enhanced aerobic potential, yet you have been adamant that their data says aerobic changes are not important. I think I'll take the authors word over yours; you never mention this so you are just a liar.

I've seen a lot of knobs on the internet, but congrats you are the king of them. I've archived your blundering here so it can be referenced if you decide to tar and feather yourself again...which you will, because for some neurotic reason you would rather be reviled and be known as an ignorant and liar rather than remain anonymous.

And you haven't answered for why you should be trusted to analyze anything since you have shown a complete lack of comprehension of undergrad-level statistics. And you never will because you lack the integrity to answer for it.

I'm done here. Of course, you will spew some more senseless garbage because you feel that having the last word is more important to winning that saying anything truthful or accurate.

http://This message has been edited by AndyHass (edited Aug-04-2007).
Click to view kemibe's profile Amateur 39 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
233. Aug 4, 2007 9:17 PM in response to: Richard99
This is going to amaze everyone still hanging around, but Richard is lying again.

Sure, in his "article" he provided the same numbers concerning aerobic factors that I did, but he downplayed and misrepresented their meaning. And in his latest post, he conveniently omitted the part of the study discussion I already quoted that highlights just how blatant a liar he is.

His words:

There were few changes in the runners' aerobic capacity. Oxidative enzyme activity (citrate synthase activity), which is a measure of the muscles ability to produce energy aerobically, increased by 37%. Interestingly, despite the increase ability of the muscles to produce energy aerobically there was no change in VO2max (49.5 vs. 52 ml/kg/min). There was a trend for an increase in absolute VO2 from 3.37 l/min to 3.5 l/min, but the change was not large enough to be significant. Running economy improved at the submaximal running speed of 9.65 km/hr (similar to training & marathon pace), with an absolute decrease in oxygen consumption of 2.43 vs 2.28 l/min and relative oxygen consumption decreasing from 36.0 to 33.6 ml/kg/min.

What Richard doesn't say is that a decrease in oxygen consumption represents an improvement in aerobic capacity, just as the authors wrote in the abstract: "Oxygen uptake during submaximal running and citrate synthase activity were improved (P < 0.05) with the training program."

Also from the study discussion:

The lower submaximal oxygen uptake combined with the small increase in VO2 max resulted in a decline in fractional utilization (73% before training compared with 66% after training)...

A "decline in fractional utilization" reflects increased efficiency, or economy. The joggers were able to maintain the same pace while using less oxygen. Richard claimed somewhere in this ugly thread that the observed improvement in economy was also not attributable to aerobic factors, so you can add that to his cache of fibs, but I don't feel like hunting down his exact words.

Anyway, Richard again:

What the results of this study shows, then, is that the physiological changes that occurred in these subjects that enabled them to run a marathon took place in the muscles, not in the cardiovascular system.

The authors:

The pretest V˙O2 max values were more in line with trained recreational runners compared with typical college-age individuals, suggesting that their cardiovascular system was reasonably well conditioned at the beginning of the training program. Conversely, the oxidative potential of the muscle (citrate synthase, increase in MHC I fibers) was significantly increased with the training program, suggesting enhanced aerobic potential.

See that, folks? Enhanced aerobic potential. Once more: Richard claims that a study in which the authors specifically note improved oxygen uptake in their subjects did not demonstrate that subjects showed improved cardiovascular conditioning. He's like a man who says you can move more food from your mouth to your stomach without increasing the flux of food through your throat, that any subsequent increase in gastric volume is driven entirely by "belly factors. He emphasizes the lack of statistically significant change in VO2 Max (and after sixteen whole weeks of jogging a few times a week, well gee, I can't imagine why the change in these runners wasn't greater) but avoids mentioning other, more important parameters related to oxygen transport. Luckily the authors were not so slimy, irresponsible, and brick-stupid.

But this is a comparatively minor semantic point. The study was not large enough in numbers (N = 7), long enough in duration, or inclusive of a sufficient training load to be of relevance to competitive runners at any level. Richard will whine that anyone voicing such complaints about "the study" so should take them up with the authors, but the authors aren't the ones misrepresenting their work. Richard is, and this is about the hundredth time I know of he's done the same thing, because he believes was put on this earth to be a lying idiot devoid of any and all accopmplishments as both an athete and advisor -- the anti-Messiah of running.

Stepping back a little, look at it this way: If Richard's idea were correct -- that distance-running performance is all about leg-muscle power -- then distance runners would train primarily or even exclusively by doing squats, leg presses, leg curls, and the like, and wouldn't bother with all of that silly aerobic conditioning (i.e., running).

Incidentally, I visited his running forum and literally laughed out loud at this[/URL" target="_blank">. Someone named "runnerman," who I assume posts here under a different name, quoted Richard knocking Arthur Lydiard. Richard tried to weasel out of that one by pointing out that he said it on his own site, not in a message-board thread. Pure (fool's) gold!

Richard is and evidently always will be a lying, ignorant clown. On the whole, he's easily the most worthless contributor to any running message board I've ever seen, and that includes every zit-popping, testosterone-intoxicated troll on letsrun.com. One thing the world doesn't need is more dumb, noisy liars. To those who think I'm being to hard on him, well, I'll stop when he stops lying.
Click to view kemibe's profile Amateur 39 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
234. Aug 4, 2007 9:23 PM in response to: Richard99
Hey, how about that. Andy and I said almost exactly the same thing. Must be that we're part of that cabal Richard complains about, the tunnel-vision-driven base-trainers who together conspire to maintain a distance-running orthodoxy by keeping cutting-edge findings from the Gibbenses of the world from seeing the light of day.

Richard can't delete anything but the first page of this mess, which consists mainly of his own "article" anyway, so until this scrolls off the board owing to age he can't do anything to erase it.
Click to view JimR022's profile Legend 1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002
236. Aug 5, 2007 8:33 AM in response to: Richard99
quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard99:
one recent theory is that improvements in performance are due to increased mitochondria in the muscle fibers, not the cardiovascular system<HR>


Nothing new, presented here[/URL" target="_blank"> long before you even came on board to CR.
Click to view fredurie's profile Legend 1,979 posts since
Aug 21, 2002
238. Aug 5, 2007 11:57 AM in response to: Richard99
Richard, I've been running since 1975. Your philosophy is
irrelevant to me.

Show me some studies that don't involve novice whatevers or
slow people.