All I can say is don't knock it until you've tried it. I think so many people get locked into training philosophies without experiencing different training stimuli. If Daniel's says don't go over 2.5 hours on your long run, most people don't. Then, race after race, the keep hitting the wall at 2.5 hours and wonder why they can't break through it. There are so many variables going on, more than I can address in a single thread at 6 in the morning, but if I have to say anything, don't limit yourself. I ran my best marathon ever with runs in the range of 3:40 and 3:20. Much longer than the time it took me to run the marathon itself. 16-20 mile runs just don't do the same thing for me that 22+ mile runs do. They key is recovery. I am glad McMillan brought up this topic in the article. One of my favorite runners (Kenny Moore) trained this way. He had great success with limited mileage. The key, Long Runs and plenty of recovery...Here is a sample of his training prior to the 1978 NY Marathon:

Sun--Sept.25--write Bill Rodgers profile.
Mon--Easy day.
Tues--Brainstorm Eric Heiden, embellish notes,--run 6 x mile on Pre's Trail in 4:40-4:44.
Wed--Easy day and garden work.
Thurs--Easy day.
Fri--32-mile run.
Sat--Easy day.
Sun--Easy day.
Mon--6x330 on grass(last 6 45.5-46), easy 6 miles.
Tues--Easy day.
Wed--Easy day.
Thurs--6 x mile @ 4:40.
Fri--Easy day.
Sat--Easy day.
Sun--28-mile run.
Mon--Easy day.
Tues--Easy day.
Wed--3x660(1:42), 440(66), 330(48), 220(32), 110(15), jog 10 miles.
Thurs--Easy day.
Fri--Easy day.
Sat--6 x mile @4:36
Sun--Easy day, fly to Washington D.C.
Mon--15 miles easy.
Tues--Easy day.
Wed--10 mile run, 1st five at 7:00 pace and second five at 5:00 pace.
Thurs--Easy day.
Fri--Easy day.
Sat--Easy day.
Sun--New York City Marathon, 2:16:29. Ken did not run for the next 8 days but on the 27th of October won a pumpkin carving contest at Bob Newland's house.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by AKTrail:
QUOTEOriginally posted by runawayjesse:
"Ultra's aren't raced at a pace that boarders the line btw aerobic and anaerobic. a marathon is a race that requires a whole different training scheme than an ultra."
Hmmm, some people run 50k in less than 3 hr. 98% of marathon finishers in 2006 in US were over 3 hr. Granted, more people run 42 km under 3 hrs (and some close to 2 hrs) than run 50 km under 3 hrs. When you get away from the flat road marathons, look at how many marathons may have course records near 3 hr. And mountain races that are shorter still may be over 3 hr. As has been discussed here and elsewhere, is it about the distance or duration for training? Why do you train one way for 26.2 and another for 26.3? Phyiologically, the body responds to time and intensity. It doesn't know if you're going 20 miles or 50.

BTW, someone else said something about 4-5 hrs being extreme. 4.5 hr is BQ time for 60yo female.


"If we wanted to run a marathon just to do the distance than we can all go out and run for 6 hours every saturday than soak in ice for a few days till we can do it again. your missing the point. It's not that a 3-4 hours run is bad but being that it might subtract from the rest of the training it can become counter productive. Ya see in Ultra running their is no other part. long runs is all their is to it. And for a runner just looking to finish a marathon, I don't think they should be worring about late race fade. So what slow down."

First, I'm sorry you're having problems with your long runs and need to soak in ice after them. Yes, I have used an ice bath a few days, but waaay less ice than I see people using who have trained more conventionally. And no Vit I for me. At 60, prevention is much easier than recovery.

Perhaps you misinterpreted my use of term "recovery" after a long run. That's the time to do another key workout, not down time. The 3-5 days includes 2 days of easy runs and usually a hike or two. Depending on schedule one of those recovery days may be a 5-hr trail work day, which includes about 1-1.5 hr power hike with equipment and 3-4 hr of swinging a pulaski or mccleod where we're building new single track. On the 5th day, I was doing sub-LT rolling hills and then a "workout" every 3 days - other 2 days are easy run and DNR.

Please let me know what your workouts are when you're 60.

Perhaps you should read my post. There's 2 issues that are typically brought up.
(1) Runs beyond 3-4 hr cause injury.
(2) Too much dependence on long run and can't do other workouts.
I posted my anecdotal experience - as a 60yo female beginner - that you can do long runs longer than that, still do other workouts, and not get injured (I do have a weak achilles from the past and trying to keep that uninjured). I also included some background on how I got there and why I chose certain workouts.

You really need to learn more about ultras and training for an ultra if you think the long run is all there is to it. Granted, it's the key factor since there's so many issues with hydration, electrolytes, and fueling, what clothes work, how to carry gear, etc.

I would propose that "late race fade" isn't the issue for slower runners. For slower runners, I would suggest that the longer runs help them be better prepared and have a better marathon experience. I'm not a believer in the approach that 4hr runs will hurt in training, but not on race day. But it needs to be prepared for.

Regarding workouts that you think I'm not doing:
"Tempo runs" - perhaps you're using the term differently, but I thought tempo runs were constant effort just below LT. I know the term varies a lot with some having them at LT and others going down to about 84% max hr. In my terminology, when I say "high end aerobic", I'm usually in the 85-88% max hr. I had 2 workouts in that microcyle with 25 minutes in that zone. My rolling hills tend to be tempo or maybe a couple minute break in middle if I can't keep up the effort on the downhill. Note that this is done on somewhat twisty single track. Agility required. The hill repeats will have a longer gap in there because the downhill footing is slippery plastic geo-grid. I will do tempo runs on a flat surface earlier in the year general conditioning, but they need to be applied to trails and hills to be useful for a race.

"anaerobic" runs - I've deliberately ignored those since of the assortment of workouts I thought I needed, they had the lowest priority and some other basics were needed first. However, sometimes on the high-end aerobic runs, I'll push it over the LT for a brief period - mostly for the power, rather than cardio aspects.

"hills" - Long runs, rolling hills, hill repeats in that microcyle. Other times I'll do one of the big hills (few thousand feet) rather than repeats, but that's aerobic and done for strength endurance. Or I may put some Lydiard hill drills in there. I haven't used them as much this year as in the past because of my increase in volume. Again, I usually keep them below LT, but occasionally on the rollers or repeats I'll push them over LT. You didn't say what flavor of hills, and you may have meant the short (<1 min) hills. They occasionally get included in the rolling hills, but they were low priority for now. I think Lydiard hill drills give me more bang for my buck for developing power. I don't believe in doing workouts just to say I did a workout.

You didn't mention agility runs, another essential for racing - roots, twists, hills, navigation while running. I've got a course that I use for that in prep for a 10k in May. Last year I ran more of it later in the summer also, but it has low priority for next race so hasn't been done since then. It will get put back in the mix in a few weeks, probably.


There's a huge toolbox of running workouts. People have to prioritize what works for them in a microcycle or across microcycles and training years or whatever. This depends on their past training and future goals. You'll notice some pgms may alternate between tempo runs and speed work on a weekly basis or shift priority in early to late parts of schedule.


"If you waste 90% of your training capacity on that 1 day than you may be missing out on possible potentail"
Sorry you misunderstood, but my long run was only about 30% of my volume and 1 of 4 workouts in a microcycle, so only 25% of my workouts. Actually, it's the size of the hills (and achilles limits) in my other workouts that is as much of a limiter to diversity of workouts as the long run is.


"I feel everybody is different and has things that work better for them. If running 38 miles once a week and sleeping for 6 days is what gets you a better time than go do it. Unfortunately this argument will never be settled."
You're missing the point. There are things that work better for different people and different goals. I don't think there's any argument about that. As to who should do what, that's up to the individual. I learned a long time ago that standard approaches don't work up here.

"It will rest along side of the high mileage debate, the weight training debate, the heart rate training debate. GRrrr, sometimes I feel their is too much information out their. When will the insanity stop? Can't we just all go running and be happy for each other?"

As above, they're discussions. There's no right and wrong. I had a really nice run today. I hope you did too. I just presented some anecdotal statements in my first post giving Mary an example of building toward very long runs in older females and clarified them here. No debate on my part.<HR>

Down boy. Not so sure why you would spend so much time ripping apart everything I say. I wasn't disagreeing with any of your gosple....just simple speculation on my part. Forgive me if I upset you, my post wasn't intended to shoot down your training. I'm sure you train just fine. Thanks for the outline though.



http://This message has been edited by runawayjesse (edited Jul-28-2007).

Wow, I am impressed with what I can say while I am blitzed. It did make sense.


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quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sarah108:
As someone who has never run a marathon, I am probably not qualified to comment in this thread. However, I AM an ultrarunner who just completed my first 100 miler. There is a huge component to doing very long runs that you are all missing and that is the MENTAL component. Doing long training runs to be the point where you are very, very fatigued but must still press on helps you develop the mental toughness and discipline that you need in a long race. You learn how to suck it up, forget the pain and keep going long after it stops being fun. This type of mind-over-matter training is crucial for running ultras, especially 100s. I would imagine the occasional extra-long run would have similar mental-hardening benefits for marathoners.<HR>

Just as I stated I have no reason to run the extra long runs. I would say 18 would be my max before a marathon. I like speed work interval work.

100 milers oofah You go girl!

Two things:

1) A 135 mile ultramarathon in Death Valley is not the same as a road marathon, so the specific training details, such as the length of the long run won't necessarily line up. There are a lot of 10k runners who run 15 to 20 mile long runs, so does that mean a marathoner should run a 60 mile long run? You can also argue that ultramarathoners do more than one ultra a year, and those races themselves can count as long run training.

2) Marathon training should be looked at as a whole, like some kind of holistic lifestyle almost. So it's not just the long run that will make or break your race. However, having said that, the suggestion for the super long run (28-30 miles?) is a tool suggested by Greg McMillan for those who haven't been able to avoid the late race fade. Perhaps it is meant more for those who have done a few marathons, not necessarily marathon virgins.

Often though, I think a late race fade in the marathon is due to poor race strategy, mostly too optimistic a goal time...

quote:<HR>Originally posted by runawayjesse:
AK apples and oranges my friend. Ultra's aren't raced at a pace that boarders the line btw aerobic and anaerobic. a marathon is a race that requires a whole different training scheme than an ultra.

<HR>

I think the point is that many (most?) people who run a lot of ultras also run a lot of marathons, and in general they don't fade in the marathons. That could be because of the type of training they do, or more likely the sheer uninterrupted string of long runs under their belt. I think the mental training is probably important, too.

We were originally talking about fading, weren't we? If that is the problem you need to solve, then given the choice between 1) lots of runs over 18 miles, 2) some runs over 28, and 3) lots of quality speed or threshold work then I would personally put the speed work last for effectiveness. People who run ultras AND marathons typically all do lots of #1 and #2 and are no more likely to do speed than anyone else. With just enough exceptions to prove the rule, they are all fade-proof.

Of course if you want to talk really fast marathons, ultra runners are not the best place to look; people who do a lot of quality speedwork are more likely prospects.