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6 Replies Last post: Jul 28, 2007 9:59 PM by kcwoodhead  
Click to view kcwoodhead's profile Legend 355 posts since
Oct 18, 2007
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Jul 27, 2007 4:07 PM

Marathon Help!

I also posted this in multisport, where I do most of my CR business, but I thought I might get some good insight here too:

Burning question: is is just supposed to hurt from mile 1?
Now, I'll go back and give my reason for asking that question: I'm slow. My marathon PR is 5:12 and I've run 5 (5:12, 5:16, 5:21, 5:22, 5:55).

Recently, my little group has tried to be more in-tune with our long run pace. Everything you read says you should run .5-1.5 min/mile slower than your goal marathon pace. My goal is 5 hours...always has been. That is a 11:27min/mile pace. I feel like 13:00 min/mile is way too slow and wonder how in the world I could train at 13 and race at 11:27. We usually average between 11:30-12:00 for out long runs, usually closer to the 12:00 average. I also do a 9/1 run/walk (run 9 minutes, walk 1).

So, say I keep training at that same pace, when I show up at the start line of Chicago in 2 months, do I automatically have to start slightly out of my comfort zone and just hope I stay there? This is a new concept to me, and it has just recently dawned on me that faster runners really have to step out of their comfort zone from the start (i.e. someone whose goal pace is 7:00 min/mile who has been training at 7.5-9 min/mile will no doubt not be in their comfort zone running 7 min/mile).

Also, I have read that it isn't your long run that makes you faster, but your speed work and tempo runs and stuff like that. What does everyone feel about that? I just finished a weekly track circuit and I will do hills for the next 5 weeks, then back to track for about 4 more weeks.

For a little more history/info, something just seems to happen to me between the 16 and 26 mile mark, both during training and the marathon (i.e. during the few months between my ~16 mile run and the race, and then during those miles in the race). Last year I ran a 2:50:00 25k. That is the predicted 25k time for a 4:57 marathon on the McMillian calculator. Then I ran a 5:12 in Houston 2 months later. Oddly, 2 years earlier, I ran a 2:45 in the same 25k and a 5:22 marathon (again 2 months apart). So, there is kind of a pattern there.
T
his year will be different because I'm running Chicago and don't have any longer "predictor" races leading into it. I'm doing a 1/2 ironman, a 101, and a 50k trail race in the time between Chicago (Oct 7) and Houston (Jan 13), so I'm not sure I'll get any more predictor races again.


Sorry this is so long - I guess I'm just lost and really want to figure how to get under that magical 5 hour mark that has eluded me for so long!
Click to view JimR022's profile Legend 1,008 posts since
Jan 16, 2002
1. Jul 27, 2007 4:23 PM in response to: kcwoodhead
Re: Marathon Help!
So you're doing lots of long slow running and lots of long slow races. Try this....run some 5k-10k races, and don't hold back in them. That'll pick up the ol' leg speed.
Click to view runninirish's profile Legend 233 posts since
Feb 26, 2007
2. Jul 27, 2007 5:02 PM in response to: kcwoodhead
Re: Marathon Help!
quote:<HR>Originally posted by kcwoodhead:
. I'm doing a 1/2 ironman, a 101, and a 50k trail race in the time between Chicago (Oct 7) and Houston (Jan 13), .
.B]<HR>


Holy ****...are you serious? I am currently training for my next A race...it's 12 months away.

I agree with above...challenge yourself to some shorter races/training...it's fun, fast and get's those legs moving. I focused my whole 2005 to running a 10K just to get some leg speed for my 2006 marathon...it paid off big time.

------------------
"Fortitudine vincimus"
Click to view BillyVLT's profile Legend 221 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
3. Jul 27, 2007 6:48 PM in response to: kcwoodhead
Re: Marathon Help!
The question "How is it that training at a slower pace will help me run at a faster pace in a race?" is a common one. It seems very counter-intuitive, doesn't it? There are a lot of experienced people on this board that swear it is true. Many famous coaches (Daniels, Higdon, just for starters) swear it's true also.

I've not been able to make it work for me during marathons. However, my training has been very spotty. I've been working on being more consistent and I think it is helping.

I have found this approach to work for shorter races. I think of 11:30 miles as my easy pace. I was able to do a 5K at 9:09 pace. I honestly didn't think I had that kind of "speed" (no laughing, speed demons!) in me. Mentally, I knew that I could endure for 30 minutes even when it felt like that would not be possible. I'd done it in practice. In case it matters, I'd done some speedwork, but not a lot.

So, the "useful training adaptations" don't stop with your body. They continue in your mind.

Hal Higdon recommends doing marathon specific pace workouts. So does Dr. Daniels. If you do these, you won't be stepping outside your comfort zone. It will be just like practice.

I also think Daniels recommends (at least as to those of us who are not competitive) starting the marathon at an easy pace, getting to M pace after 2 miles or so, and then maybe even slowing down to E pace for the last 2 miles.

I very much want to break 5 hours too. Best of luck to you!

Cheers,
Billy
Click to view milkbaby004's profile Legend 464 posts since
Jul 28, 2003
4. Jul 27, 2007 7:51 PM in response to: kcwoodhead
Re: Marathon Help!
quote:<HR>Originally posted by kcwoodhead:
Burning question: is is just supposed to hurt from mile 1?

Recently, my little group has tried to be more in-tune with our long run pace. Everything you read says you should run .5-1.5 min/mile slower than your goal marathon pace. My goal is 5 hours...always has been. That is a 11:27min/mile pace. I feel like 13:00 min/mile is way too slow and wonder how in the world I could train at 13 and race at 11:27. We usually average between 11:30-12:00 for out long runs, usually closer to the 12:00 average. I also do a 9/1 run/walk (run 9 minutes, walk 1).
<HR>


I'm no expert, but a few thoughts come to mind that haven't been addressed...

Marathon pace on race day should NOT hurt from mile 1! It is understandable if it might hurt at mile 25, but it should feel too easy at mile 1. If it is too hard at the start, logic dictates that it will be impossible to continue on that pace for the entire race. And it is also a sign that you messed up somewhere along the way in your marathon training.

How good has your taper been in the past? If you are constantly racing and/or don't taper properly then you won't be able to race to your potential in the marathon. If your body is still torn down from hard training, then you could be in for a long day instead of a good race.

Are you sure a 5h marathon is a realistic goal in line with your other performances? A 2:50 25k is about a 2:24 half marathon. Double that and add 10 minutes and you get 4:58. But that calculation is often an optimistic one for runners at lower mileage as well as for slower runners. If you double the HM time and add 20 minutes (which is still sometimes optimistic) that is a 5:08. I'm not trying to bring you down, but part of goal setting involves being honest about your current abilities and setting a goal in line with them.

Does your long run pace include the walking sections or is it the pace of the running sections? The reason I ask is a lot of people have those GPS things that give an instantaneous speed, but you should really include the walking portions to get your overall pace as the clock is ticking during those times as well.

Marathon training is also not only about the long run. Well, it can be when the goal is just to complete the darn thing, but you have a time goal in mind. All your other running outside of the long run should play a role in marathon training as well. Keep at it and good things can happen!
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 629 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
5. Jul 27, 2007 11:38 PM in response to: kcwoodhead
Re: Marathon Help!
To me, training is like putting all the pieces together and the race is your presentation. You put acting, then music, backset, lights, then costume and all... Finally on the opening night, you put them all together. You have endurance, speed, pacing, tactics... You work on each element and in the end put them all together. In other words, you really don't want to run as far and fast on your training. Now, you might go further than the race distance (even for marathon); you would certainly go faster than the race pace here and there. But you just don't want to run as far and as fast on your training run. Your race should be a peak form. If you do that on your workout, where would you go from there?

Marathon used to be a serious athlete's race. They train very hard and they peak for the race. They don't run their long run of, say, 22 miles at the marathon pace. It is their stamina training so they would go sightly slower pace. You might even go close to the race pace like tempo run of, say, 15 miles. But it's still not "THE" race. They'll have some reserve. Meanwhile, they'd hone their speed by racing, say, 10000m at cosiderably faster pace than the marathon pace. That could be their speed work. Shorter ran 27:45 for 10. I can't remember his 5k PR but I'm sure it was somewhere around 13:30 or even faster. One year at Fukuoka marathon, he blasted out in the first 5k in 14:35! That was unheard of; but it was still a minute slower for him (he slowed down but still won it in 2:11). They could easily run the marathon at 5-minute pace and, most likely, they would train their long run at 6:00~6:30 pace.

Now, marathoning has changed so much over the years. Not only majority of people have any idea of "peaking", they probably don't even have a concept of "sharpening". To most of them, "sharpening" for marathon means doing something like 6X800m at sub-10 minute pace (5 minutes). That, to me, is the currect situation. But for some reason, whoever is adovocating it, this "do the long run at 1:00 slower than your marathon pace" stayed. I'm sorry, but, to me, for those who expect to run the marathon in 4:00~5:00 is more of an ultra category. Particularly if you do run/walk (and I would like to clarify; I'm not against run/walk, and I understand they ALL train very hard as well), their marathon pace IS their endurance running pace. I really don't see any reason for adding a minutes over their marathon pace because they wouldn't be peaking or honing their "sharpness".

Now, there is another way to look at it. I've noticed, even for 4-hour runners, if they peak right, their pace naturally comes down. It's not uncommon to see a minute per mile drop just by tapering. In fact, if this does not happen, it's either you're training too fast; or you're too tired to get that extra out of you naturally by tapering. Again, it should come naturally. You cannont plan for it by thinking, "Okay, I should be running a minute per mile faster if I taper well so my marathon time should be expected to be such-and-such based on my training run pace...." It doesn't work out that way. It's the other way around. I honestly think most people who jump to run a marathon train way too hard. As far as I'm concerned, if you're training at, say, 9 minute pace for most of your runs including recovery jog and long runs and running the marathon at 9:15 pace, there's something wrong with your whole program.