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Click to view qtownrunner's profile Pro 68 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

Dec 26, 2007 5:20 AM

Hitting the Wall @ 8-10 Miles

I have been running for about 14 months now and I seem to be regressing in my training even though I am now running more than ever and by all accounts should be in the best shape of my life. But not only am I not able to run faster or longer, but I am actually worse off than I was at this point last year, even with an entire 12 more months of runningt. I am training for a marathon that will take place in early November and honestly I am not sure if I am even going to be able to finish it. I have been running about 25-30 miles/week which should peek at about 40 leading up to the marathon.

In every long run I have done in the past few months, I just hit the wall around between miles 8-10. For example, here are the my long run times and distances for the past couple of months...

June 9: 10 miles @ 7:52 pace
June 23: 11.2 miles @ 8.08 pace
June 30: 12.8 miles @ 9:08 pace
July 14: 10 miles @ 9:14 pace
July 27: 10.7 miles @ 9:28 pace
Aug 4: 12 miles @ 9:12 pace

The last three weekends I have gone out with the intention of running 10, 12 and 15 miles and ended up going for 7, 10.7 and 12 before having to give up. I have never had this problem before, but it is very depressing. Especially considering I was running way faster last year with less training and after only a couple of months of running. Plus I have quit smoking this year! I just don't get it. I feel great for the first 5-6 miles and then my HR starts to rise then it just shoots up at a certain point so that I have to slow or stop. Here are my splits today...

First 5 miles: 8:59 pace/156 bpm
Miles 6-10: 9:14 pace/166 bpm
Miles 11-12: 9:49 pace/167 bpm

And if I continued to run, it would have been at a 10+ min pace and 170+ bpm. For today's run, I got a good night sleep, had 2 days off before running today, ate a big whole wheat pasta meal last night, even took 2 gels (mile 7 and mile 11) and stopped for about 2 minutes to drink water at mile 10. Yet I still crashed at mile 12 and couldn't continue. Granted it has been hot and humid around here lately, but I have to train for this marathon now. Could it be that I just don't have enough slow twitch fibers or something? I have always been a sprinter and a jumper and never an endurance athlete, but I figured with all the work I had been putting in with running that I would be way ahead of where I am right now. I have to finish this marathon... I have already paid $120 for entrance, booked a hotel room for that weekend for $700+ and told everyone I know that I am running in it. There's no way I can back out or postpone, nor do I want to. I just want to be able to run longer distance than I can. What the **** is wrong with me and what can I do? Sorry for the long post. Any help is appreciated!

Thanks.


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Chris[/URL" target="_blank">

http://This message has been edited by qtownrunner (edited Aug-04-2007).
Click to view Harper028's profile Pro 191 posts since
Jan 20, 2007
1. Aug 4, 2007 10:49 AM in response to: qtownrunner
You should read the Maffetone basebuilding thread started by leitnerj.
Click to view leemantodd's profile Amateur 38 posts since
Jul 31, 2002
3. Aug 4, 2007 11:29 AM in response to: qtownrunner
Chris how about giving us your weekly training schedule you are currently at and the paces.
Also your personal info would help.
Click to view gregw070's profile Legend 250 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
4. Aug 4, 2007 11:53 AM in response to: qtownrunner
Get those long runs in. The only thing to do is slow down at the start so you have enough left to finish them. If you ended the last run at 9:49 pace, then start the next one at that pace and you'll probably feel better after 12 miles. Wash, rinse, repeat. Don't worry about pace. Go as slow as you need to. You are where you are and the goal is to get you to the finish line in November.
Click to view mcsolar99's profile Legend 1,018 posts since
Aug 14, 2007
5. Dec 26, 2007 5:20 AM in response to: qtownrunner
umm, it's hot in the summer.

my "easy" long run pace has inflated to 8:40 pace; in the spring and fall it's 7:40 pace -- same heart rate, low 120s.

today in 6x1mi, 86f 65% humidity before sunrise, people were blowing up all over. guys who are my speed or faster just went out too hard and bonked on the 3rd and 4th intervals. i averaged 6:12s... when it's cool i'm well below 6.

assuming the rest of your training is well-planned, i would have to echo the other responses and suggest that you just start out slower. aim for negative splits during your summer long runs. make sure you are hydrated. stay calm and try to relax and just grind it out... as soon as the temps begin to drop you'll see that you really have made gains in your fitness and your times will drop.

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mcsolar99[/URL" target="_blank">
workouts [/URL" target="_blank">

http://This message has been edited by mcsolar99 (edited Aug-04-2007).
Click to view Nobby063's profile Legend 630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
6. Aug 4, 2007 12:35 PM in response to: qtownrunner
Two things I can think of; one is that you might be getting into a stress situation, another is, as repeatedly pointed out (not that I'm saying THIS IS IT!), you are going out too fast.

We have no idea even how old you are and, I've seen this before but, a young fit person COULD sometimes get away with running 10 miles or even more fairly strongly with very little training. This could be your case last year??? 30 miles a week program doesn't sound too taxing at all but if you've been doing "long runs" every week at the pace that's over your heard, you WILL most likely get in a stress situation. Usually it occures much earlier (say, 6 months or so). I have no idea if you've ever run any other distance (half or 10k) and don't know where you get this 9:00 minute pace that you seem to have settled for but obviously it's getting too much for you. I see way too many people just jump in a marathon, thinking they can do it around 4-hours without any reasonable thought put into it. I'm not saying this is your case, but I'd like to know if the effort is reasonable or if you are in fact getting into a stress situation. Normally, people would progress if they follow reasonable program. The only things I can think of that they digress is that they started out over their heads thinking they could handle it and paying for it later on (young and restless, you know); or some other factors in life is affecting you like work situation, family, diet, etc.

Assuming this is the case (that you are in the stress situation), I don't think sticking to the plan of doing long runs is a good idea. If anything, I would cut your long runs to, at most, every other week. I'll have you take 3 weekends off completely, forget running and do something else. But continue some easy jog during the week--we have no idea what type of training you're following but I'd assume you are doing a couple of days of jogging during the week. But when you start out with the long runs, we'll do it slower (as been suggested several times) and make it slightly longer. I know you may think it's crazy ("I'm already having a trouble doing 10 miler!"); but for once, forget how many miles you're running and keeping track of your pace (you seem to get it too precise...do you use GPS?). Just go out and run wherever you want for 2~3 hours. Walk if you need to; but stay on your feet for a long time. I'd also suggest you do one easy fartlek session once a week to stimulate your legs.

Lastly, I know you're frustrated. I don't even know how many more weeks/months you have before the marathon (unless i missed it) but don't do it for the wrong reason. Having already paid or having told all your friend (to simply keep face) is hardly a good reason to suffer through it and come out absolutely hating the experience. If this is it for you, by all means; but if you have any intention of continuing your marathoning, or even just running for that matter, don't do it for the wrong reason. It sounds like YOU are being dictated by the schedule, not the other way around.
Click to view run4262's profile Pro 69 posts since
Jan 12, 2007
7. Aug 4, 2007 12:50 PM in response to: qtownrunner
Based on your race times from late last year I don't think you are going too fast, although it's always best to try to run negatives on your long runs. I suspect you are becoming dehydrated. In the warm, humid weather you may need to drink every 15-20 minutes or so during your run even if you start out fully hydrated or your performance will drop off dramatically. Last Sunday on an easy 16 miler, I drank a total of 10 eight ounce cups of gatorade over the course of 2h10min and still lost over 2 pounds which is all fluid deficit (I weigh 156). It's amazing how much fluid you sweat off!
Click to view Long Run Nick's profile Legend 265 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
8. Aug 4, 2007 1:17 PM in response to: qtownrunner
Read up on the symptoms of over training. Try slowing down. You will be surprised at how much more enjoyable the runs will be. Oh, most folks you see doing" the death march" the last 8-10 miles of a marathon probably did most of their training too quickly--based on unrealistic goals and not having the patience to build a strong aerobic base.

Most new on the scene runners get quick real fast--overtrain/overace and join the "I use to run but....club". In my over 31 yrs out on the roads there aren't many who still toe the line over 3 decades later. I will ask around at this years Rocket City Marathon and see how many were there in 1977 toeing the line to run the marathon. I was 34 back then and plan on running a faster time than I did 30 yrs ago (3:58). Nick
Click to view aharmer's profile Legend 460 posts since
May 25, 2005
9. Aug 4, 2007 2:03 PM in response to: qtownrunner
quote:<HR>Originally posted by qtownrunner:
[b]I have been running for about 14 months now and I seem to be regressing in my training even though I am now running more than ever and by all accounts should be in the best shape of my life. But not only am I not able to run faster or longer, but I am actually worse off than I was at this point last year, even with an entire 12 more months of runningt. I am training for a marathon that will take place in early November and honestly I am not sure if I am even going to be able to finish it. I have been running about 25-30 miles/week which should peek at about 40 leading up to the marathon.

In every long run I have done in the past few months, I just hit the wall around between miles 8-10. For example, here are the my long run times and distances for the past couple of months...

June 9: 10 miles @ 7:52 pace
June 23: 11.2 miles @ 8.08 pace
June 30: 12.8 miles @ 9:08 pace
July 14: 10 miles @ 9:14 pace
July 27: 10.7 miles @ 9:28 pace
Aug 4: 12 miles @ 9:12 pace

The last three weekends I have gone out with the intention of running 10, 12 and 15 miles and ended up going for 7, 10.7 and 12 before having to give up. I have never had this problem before, but it is very depressing. Especially considering I was running way faster last year with less training and after only a couple of months of running. Plus I have quit smoking this year! I just don't get it. I feel great for the first 5-6 miles and then my HR starts to rise then it just shoots up at a certain point so that I have to slow or stop. Here are my splits today...

First 5 miles: 8:59 pace/156 bpm
Miles 6-10: 9:14 pace/166 bpm
Miles 11-12: 9:49 pace/167 bpm

And if I continued to run, it would have been at a 10+ min pace and 170+ bpm. For today's run, I got a good night sleep, had 2 days off before running today, ate a big whole wheat pasta meal last night, even took 2 gels (mile 7 and mile 11) and stopped for about 2 minutes to drink water at mile 10. Yet I still crashed at mile 12 and couldn't continue. Granted it has been hot and humid around here lately, but I have to train for this marathon now. Could it be that I just don't have enough slow twitch fibers or something? I have always been a sprinter and a jumper and never an endurance athlete, but I figured with all the work I had been putting in with running that I would be way ahead of where I am right now. I have to finish this marathon... I have already paid $120 for entrance, booked a hotel room for that weekend for $700+ and told everyone I know that I am running in it. There's no way I can back out or postpone, nor do I want to. I just want to be able to run longer distance than I can. What the **** is wrong with me and what can I do? Sorry for the long post. Any help is appreciated!

Thanks.

[/b]<HR>


Chris,

Don't worry, you'll be fine...you'll just need to make some adjustments to your program that have already been mentioned here. You obviously wear a HRM, do you have an accurate max HR determined? At your age the formula (which is occasionally accurate) puts you at a max of about 190. I'm guessing by your HM time that you were hoping to run about 3:30 for the marathon right? Somebody running 3:30 should be able to expect to maintain 84-85% of their max HR for the duration of the race...this puts you at an avg HR of 160-161 for the marathon. Remember this assumes your max is truly 190, if not you can plug the actual numbers in for real data.

Starting your long runs at an intensity equivalent to marathon effort is a recipe for disaster. Slow down. Slow way down. Pace of long runs is almost completely irrelevant. Determine the appropriate intensity for your long runs and run at whatever pace you need to stay at that effort. What is the correct intensity? I'll give you my theory...not saying it's correct, only that this is what I use. I run my long runs at 81-82% of my marathon avg HR which is 153. If you used the same formula you would do the long runs at a HR of about 131 (again, assuming your max is 190). Forget about pace and think about the effort of running at a HR of 131...how far do you think you could go? I'll bet your initial reaction is much further than 12 miles.

You're right that you can't build a strong aerobic engine prior to this marathon, but think long term. Continuing on as is will probably keep you off the starting line...get back to the basics and get to November healthy. Don't worry about pace, just concentrate on starting and finishing this marathon. Then you'll have much more information to use in preparation for the next one. Best of luck, keep us updated on your training!

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URL=http://interwovendesign.com/kick/userdisplay.php3?username=aharmerMy Profile[/URL]

"Pain is temporary. Regret hurts forever."
URL=http://www.analytical-training.blogspot.com
Click to view slowgino's profile Pro 88 posts since
Jan 13, 2007
13. Aug 4, 2007 10:44 PM in response to: qtownrunner
quote:<HR>Originally posted by qtownrunner:
... even took 2 gels (mile 7 and mile 11) and stopped for about 2 minutes to drink water at mile 10. Yet I still crashed at mile 12 and couldn't continue. Granted it has been hot and humid around here lately, but I have to train for this marathon now...
<HR>


You might try these 3 things:
1) hydrate
2) replace electrolytes
3) slow down on the long runs

Hydration is extremely important, especially in hot weather. The normal rule of thumb is about 8 oz every 15 (20 at the most) minutes. What do you think your blood will be like if you don't hydrate? It will get thicker and your heart will have to work harder to pump that "catsup" to your muscles. You know how much you had to drink after coming back from a run... try to drink throughout the run. Stashing bottles is fine, or carry a 16-24 oz bottle. Or both.

Electrolyte replacement is important. You lose more than just water when you sweat. Some of the "endurance" formulation sport drinks have enough sodium, etc. I use diluted sport drinks + electrolyte capsules (Endurolytes.) Your system will not function properly if you've lost electrolytes and not replaced them.

You don't need to do long runs at "marathon pace" to get the endurance training benefits. Furthermore, you don't really know what your proper HR training levels are unless you've had a VO2 test. Of the 9 VO2 test summaries I've seen for runners age 28-33, 4 had an Aerobic Threshold over 151, and 4 had an Aerobic Threshold under 134. Unless you already know what your Aerobic Threshold is, try a lower HR long run. Like everyone says, start out slower for the first hour or so, hydrate, replace electrolytes... take walking breaks if you have to. Don't worry if the hot weather has you going slower to keep the HR down.
Click to view maryt091's profile Legend 806 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
14. Aug 5, 2007 7:43 AM in response to: qtownrunner
It sure sounds like overtraining, regressing rather than progressing with your running more than before. I agree with nobby about trying cutting your long runs to every other week and going out slower to start, especially with the extra heat and humidity in the summer. Skip next week's long run in favor of a shorter easy run, then take it a little easy a couple of days before your next long run - maybe skip the speedwork that week - so your legs are well rested before your next attempt at 12-15. You should still have plenty of time to get those long runs in doing them every other week before your marathon; what your'e doing now obviously isn't working.

Hydration is very important, and electrolytes as well, so stashing extra Gatorade along your route should certainly help, and the carbs will help as well. If you need to walk a little to get the fluids in, don't worry about it. You need to break though that long run barrier.