Nobby, tell us how you really feel. C'mon, take off the kid gloves.

Who is it here that says, repeatedly, that we are all experiments of one?

I think most novice runners (myself included) who set out to run a marathon are not ignoring the fact that it is a difficult objective and that setting a pack placement or goal pace is a good way to focus our training. (See note below)

I'm not kidding myself one bit. If I don't finish in under 4 hours for my first or second marathon, I'll try a third. And then a fourth. But I'll change something each time to get closer to reaching that goal. And if the change doesn't yield positive results over a reasonable period of time, I'll do something different.

I did run XC in high school. But that was nearly 20 years ago. I've remained relatively active with alpine skiing and hiking but I've never tackled a running distance greater than 5k. I never had the need nor the desire. So when the desire to run a marathon came, it had to also have goals associated it with it. 16 minute miles were not reasonable goals for me. Nor were 12 minute miles. Even 10 minute miles seemed very slow even when I started training. Slow enough to be demoralizing. So if I'm capable of running faster, I run faster. I've learned to use my heart rate as my guide. When the ticker screams, I slow down. When it's humming, I am humming along.

NOTE: I do agree that pack placement is kind of an odd goal since packs dynamics change with every race. I'd be with the clean up crew in any race involving elite runners. But in races that have high percentages of beginners, I expect to be at the front of that pack. My ex-gf ran Disney last year and finished in 4:11 and thought it sucked since she had already qualified and run Boston (her first marathon got her a BQ). But in relationship to all other female runners, she was in the top 15%. It was hot and humid that day and everyone (except that **** Brazilian ) seemed to suffer.

I'm actually grateful for all the different "formulas" out there from all the coaches. By studying everything and being able to pick and choose the things that work FOR ME, I feel I can become a better runner. After all, I'm not trying out for the Olympics, I'm trying to better myself. And that, my friend, is all that really matters. Well, that and finishing.

I think there's advantage to starting from zero. As we gain experience, I also think we place limits on ourselves. Whatever GOOD wisdom we get from others, we probably also get a lot of BAD wisdom.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by vijay2525:
<HR>

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nobby:
Are you saying I'm being too nice or too nasty? Did I "repeatedly" say "we are all experiments of one"? I know Dr. Dave said that at the clinic we had in Boulder last year and I agree with it though...

You see, here's a problem; you seem to understand about this individual thing and, as you had said it, you'd be willing to tweek here and there... How many of peolpe out there actually do that? They don't want to "read" books to understand principles; they want schedules. They buy books and go straight to the schedules. I met this guy last year; he wanted to run Twin Cities marathon. He ran XC in high school but not been running much since. He picked intermediate Higdon's schedule off internet. Why intermediate? Because he thought beginner sounded too, well, beginner! He said he's shooting for 4-hours. Why 4-hours? He had no idea. He was determined to do three 20-milers because he read that's the minimum requirement to complete marathon successfully. He hurt his knee; and 6 weeks before the marathon, he was still determined to do three 20-milers! He said he didn't want to give up because he already told his friends and family (wrong reason). He didn't want to give up; but his knee did. So he didn't run (the smartest thing I heard from him so far). How many of these stories have you heard? "I'm determined to run this marathon," "I need to do these long runs," "I've got to do these three 20-milers,"...

In Japan, we study English in junior high and high school. Depending on the text book, the first thing we learn is greeting. "Hello. How are you?" "Fine, thank you. And you?"... I'm serious, I've seen this guy who probably had temperature of 102 and he saw someone and this guy asked him, "How are you?" and he replied, "Fine, thank you. And you?" Fine!? This guy should have been at home in bed resting if he didn't want to die!!! So many people following rigid marathon training program with knee strap and taping all over their legs remind me of this guy. They are following the program for the sake of following the program.

There, is this what you mean by "taking off kids' gloves"? ;o)<HR>

That's exactly what I was talking about.

I don't think it was you who said we are all experiments of one though. At least not to my recollection. Someone else here says it a lot.

I think any running program/formula needs a disclaimer that says, "If it hurts, do something different because this isn't working for you!" Too often people follow the formula but ignore common sense. I WANT to run 6-7 minute miles on all my runs. I found out very quickly that that particular goal was not only unreasonable now but also increasing my risk of injury exponentially. When I go out for a training run, I constantly remind myself that my goal is NOT the training run but the marathon. There are no bonus points for finishing the training run sooner or without taking a walk break, etc. The training runs are the building blocks to the race. And the race is merely a point in time of part of my training for the next race. And so on.

This running boom has brought about an increase in runners chasing the marathon dream. There's nothing wrong with that. But that's also what makes Boston special. You don't just get to decide to run Boston. You qualify for it. And quite frankly, it's not as easy as some might think. So now, any bozo with $100 can enter a marathon and finish in 7 hours and that's just the way things are. But if that's their goal, let it ride!

It's funny you wrote about "that guy" because I started out as "that guy." XC in high school, no real running (except the Army) for almost 20 years, and then I looked at Higdon's schedule and decided that the Intermediate schedule would be better than the novice schedule because I wasn't a massively overweight couch potato who had never run before. But after careful and honest consideration for where I truly was in my abilities, I chose the novice schedule because it was the most likely to guarantee me success without injury.

As for your English lesson, it's not just the Japanese who respond so automatically. It is a cultural norm when asked "How are you?" to simply respond with something simple and quick like "Just fine, thank you." Even if you're not. No one wants to hear about your irritable bowel syndrome or the fact that your cat coughed up another fur ball on your pillow. Occasionally and just for fun, I'll respond with "Why? Do you care?" You should see the look on people's faces. :-p

vijay.

To each his/her own. I ran my first after getting back into running after a long 10+ yr layoff. with ix months of training I pr'd at 3:01. Closest I've got to that was a 3:07. I am going to try another attempt after a 7 year "marathon free" on again- off again training. This time I just hope to make 3:30 ish. I have tried duplicating my fisrt training (maxed at 45 mpw as i found my breaking point is just above that) to no avail. Don't know what it was back then but i just cant find that magic bullet

Ok, I started up running again in Feb. of '06 after several years off. I ran my first marathon last October. The OP started in April (4 months ago?)? The OP is only doing 25 mpw right now? I was running double that last August. My marathon last October was no picnic. Your goal time is very aggressive for someone in your position. I felt lucky to finish in under 5 hours and it was not a fun last 3 miles. I ran a second marathon last April. That one felt fabulous compared to the first marathon. A lot can happen in 26.2 miles. The OP needs a ton more training before the marathon will be manageable. Oh, I am sure they could finish on what they are doing now, but I don't believe it will be pretty.

About the Lance thing. I would like to point out that he looked **** good for an obviously painful race. Unless you were an elite athlete previously, I seriously doubt that type of composure is possible for someone who is in as much pain as he was. And with only 25 mpw in August, the race is going to hurt a ton.

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also if I were to do it over I probably woulda just worked on my 5k time for a year or two first.


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http://This message has been edited by superburtm (edited Aug-12-2007).