Daniels vs. Pfitzinger

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cfkid063

42 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

Aug 17, 2007 9:31 AM

Daniels vs. Pfitzinger

Hello everyone, I need some advice. I'm getting ready to run my third half marathon in late October. Either Columbus or Indy, not sure yet. At this point, I'm still in base building for another week or so. I'm planning to peak around 35 mpw. After this half, I plan to step up the full for the Flying Pig in'08, assuming everything goes well. This will be my first marathon.

I've been around here for a while, and have heard many people recommend both the Daniels' Running Formula and the Pfitzinger Advanced Marathoning books. I have read, and am planning to use Daniels' Marathon Plan A for my half (I know, I'm going to have to remove some of the quality weeks, as I only have 11 weeks left).

I'm looking for opinions on which to use for the Flying Pig. I like Daniels' thoughts and methods, but have not yet read Pitzinger's book. I also don't think that my first marathon would be considered "Advanced."

My goal for the full is to peak around 50-55 miles per week. I've never run that much before, but figure after my October half, I'll have time to build up to it before I start formal training. I have no specific time goal for the Pig, although breaking 4 hours would be nice. My goal is to finish, but finish knowing that I did well and trained appropriately for my first full.

Thoughts? Opinions?

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CfKid[/URL" target="_blank">

Fast Like the Wind

33 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

1. Aug 17, 2007 10:36 AM

in response to: cfkid063

I've used Pfitz for the last 2 years (55mpw in '06, 70mpw for spring '07 and a modified 90mpw for this fall). The plans are easy to follow and the nice thing is that he gives the reasons for why you're running different runs in the lead-up chapters (don't forget to read those). I've got Daniels' book as well and his plans were just too confusing for my little mind, so I took the good ideas and merged them with Pfitz's and then follow Pfitz's plans (with some modifications of course).

Hope that helps and good luck

bigapplepie

2,636 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

2. Aug 17, 2007 11:32 AM

in response to: cfkid063

The main difference seems to be that Pfitz's plans are easier to understand.

fuzz039

144 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

3. Aug 17, 2007 1:49 PM

in response to: cfkid063

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fast Like the Wind:
the nice thing is that he gives the reasons for why you're running different runs in the lead-up chapters <HR>

I agree. It's what sets Advanced Marathoning apart from many other similar books, IMO.

I found Daniels Running Formula to be an excellent complement to Advanced Marathoning. Between the two there's a tremendous amount of useful information packed into relatively few pages.

runawayjesse

538 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

4. Aug 18, 2007 8:20 AM

in response to: cfkid063

Just keep in mind if you follow Daniels plans you will be running for 2.5 hours or 25% of your weekly mileage as your long run whichever is LESS. For you I'm guessing that will be around 14 miles. Many folks don't consider that. Pfitz's long run puts you at 40% sometimes.

Personally I like Pfitz. I see a lot of Lydiard in Pfitz's plans and I'm pretty sure his personel success was due to Lydiard style training. Jack Daniels on the other hand doesn't have running experience.

tigger077

691 posts since
Nov 19, 1999

5. Aug 18, 2007 9:30 AM

in response to: cfkid063

quote:<HR>Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Jack Daniels on the other hand doesn't have running experience.

<HR>

I think you might want to reconsider that statement.

VictorN

406 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

6. Aug 18, 2007 9:50 AM

in response to: cfkid063

quote:<HR>Originally posted by cfkid:
I'm looking for opinions on which to use for the Flying Pig. I like Daniels' thoughts and methods, but have not yet read Pitzinger's book. I also don't think that my first marathon would be considered "Advanced."<HR>

I don't know that Daniels' plans are any less advanced. In many ways they are more advanced than Pfitzinger's plans.

And runawayjesse, I would consider Daniels to be one of the premier running experts of our time.

Victor

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www.competitiverunner.com[/URL" target="_blank">

DanMoriarity

823 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

7. Aug 18, 2007 10:26 AM

in response to: cfkid063

quote:<HR>Originally posted by bigapplepie:
The main difference seems to be that Pfitz's plans are easier to understand.<HR>

Agreed. Daniels was a mentor for Pfitz so the plans are very similar.

runawayjesse

538 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

8. Aug 18, 2007 11:02 AM

in response to: cfkid063

Wooah! Sorry about my Daniels comment. No disrespect intended. I'm just unaware of any of his personel running achievements. I was under the impression he was a swimming coach with an extensive backround in science. Can someone clue me in on his running experience? His PB's, medals etc?

Pfitz was a world class athlete during the 80's. I can't remember his PB's at the current moment but was one of the best runners at that time. He won the 1984 U.S. olympic marathon trials and became one of USA best runners.

Maybe Daniels did do something impressive on the feild. Can someone clue me in?

bigapplepie

2,636 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

9. Aug 18, 2007 12:23 PM

in response to: cfkid063

quote:<HR>Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Wooah! Sorry about my Daniels comment. No disrespect intended. I'm just unaware of any of his personel running achievements. I was under the impression he was a swimming coach with an extensive backround in science. Can someone clue me in on his running experience? His PB's, medals etc?

Pfitz was a world class athlete during the 80's. I can't remember his PB's at the current moment but was one of the best runners at that time. He won the 1984 U.S. olympic marathon trials and became one of USA best runners.

Maybe Daniels did do something impressive on the feild. Can someone clue me in?<HR>

2 Olympics, 1 medal.

tigger077

691 posts since
Nov 19, 1999

10. Dec 26, 2007 5:32 AM

in response to: cfkid063

This is from Wiki, and is in addition to his experience as a former olympian. I believe it was two medals (silver and bronze) in two olympics...modern pentathlon, which includes a 3,000 meter XC event.

"Jack Daniels is a professor of physical education and cross-country running coach at State University of New York at Cortland. He received his doctoral degree in exercise physiology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Named ?The World?s Best Coach? by Runner?s World magazine,[1] he has led Cortland runners to eight NCAA Division III National Championships, 31 individual national titles, and more than 130 All-America awards.[2] He is famous for writing Daniels' Running Formula, a 1998 book detailing his unique training philosophies. Dr. Daniels resides in Cortland, New York."

http://This message has been edited by tigger (edited Aug-18-2007).

Kim Stevenson

59 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

11. Dec 26, 2007 5:32 AM

in response to: cfkid063

quote:<HR>Originally posted by tigger:
This is from Wiki, and is in addition to his experience as a former olympian. I believe it was two medals (silver and bronze) in two olympics...modern pentathlon, which includes a 3,000 meter XC event.

"Jack Daniels is a professor of physical education and cross-country running coach at State University of New York at Cortland. He received his doctoral degree in exercise physiology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Named ?The World?s Best Coach? by Runner?s World magazine,[1] he has led Cortland runners to eight NCAA Division III National Championships, 31 individual national titles, and more than 130 All-America awards.[2] He is famous for writing Daniels' Running Formula, a 1998 book detailing his unique training philosophies. Dr. Daniels resides in Cortland, New York."

http://This message has been edited by tigger (edited Aug-18-2007).<HR>

Jesse, If you go to Letsrun and look up a thread called Lydiard or Daniels. You will find 2 years or so of posts.It is huge. Many from those are from those of us who post here (Nobby, Engle (goes as HRE over there), myself and Glenn McCarthy)
Dr Daniels also posts and contributes.
Unfortunately there are people over on that post who have set out to destroy some of the discussion. So there is a lot of Cr*p.
But a heap of value too.

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Run easy, Run long

Southern Man

757 posts since
Apr 19, 2006

12. Aug 18, 2007 4:16 PM

in response to: cfkid063

quote:<HR>Originally posted by bigapplepie:
The main difference seems to be that Pfitz's plans are easier to understand.<HR>

The main difference that I saw, and that led me to choose Pfitzinger, is in the long runs. Pfitzinger's long runs are run at a comfortable pace, with the exception of only two which are run mostly at marathon pace. Daniel's plans often include a lot of T paced running in multiple segments in the long runs.

Southern Man

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We're on a road to nowhere. Come on along.

runawayjesse

538 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

13. Aug 18, 2007 4:34 PM

in response to: cfkid063

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kim Stevenson:
Jesse, If you go to Letsrun and look up a thread called Lydiard or Daniels. You will find 2 years or so of posts.It is huge. Many from those are from those of us who post here (Nobby, Engle (goes as HRE over there), myself and Glenn McCarthy)
Dr Daniels also posts and contributes.
Unfortunately there are people over on that post who have set out to destroy some of the discussion. So there is a lot of Cr*p.
But a heap of value too.

<HR>

thanks Kim. I read a lot of that thread. I personelly feel Lydiard and Daniels are worlds apart. Daniels is more cookie cutter while Lydiard requires you to search a little. The more I run the more I begin to understand Lydiard and the more I see his principles spread among methods. Do you agree that Pfitz is very Lydiardish.

tigger077

691 posts since
Nov 19, 1999

14. Aug 18, 2007 8:03 PM

in response to: cfkid063

quote:<HR>Originally posted by runawayjesse:
thanks Kim. I read a lot of that thread. I personelly feel Lydiard and Daniels are worlds apart.
<HR>

I am curious why you would say that Jessie? Running Formula teaches periodized training with lots of easy paced running, fartlek, threshold runs and intervals. I agree that he is more precise, which you describe as "cookie cutter." But I would hardly classify them as "worlds apart" on that basis alone.

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Aug 17, 2007 9:31 AM

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