quote:<HR>Originally posted by AKTrail:

For perspective, just curious how steep / big your hills are - % slope and height? That is, do you run in the mountains?

Hills generally do have progressive overload unless you live in a topographically challenged area, and in those areas strength training can pay real benefits. For progressive overload, start with 5% hills and progress to 50-60% sections.For strength endurance, run them longer (we have lots of 2-3000ft climbs in 2-3 trail miles; Seward has 3000ft climb in 1 mile). When you can run those, just add more water to a hydration bladder - or start adding weight when appropriate. Since we don't have aid stations, this is very specific for us. I'll do some runs without pack to work on power, and others with pack (10+lb) for specificity and strength endurance. My hilly runs are generally on 20-30% slopes, but use some steeper, some shallower, depending on goal of workout. Yes, I use strength training to help the hills, and my hills in turn help my strength training.

FWIW, even our elite mtn runners will generally hike the steepest sections, so I really do believe that hills provide progressive overload beyond what most people can handle. I'm not sure if they do weights or not, but I know some mtn runners do.

It sounds like you're somewhat like me - lacked the basic strength to run hills well, and a combination of strength training followed by hill work makes the hill running easier (or possible in my case). BUT an experienced hill runner (10+ years) may already have far more strength than you or I do right now - and he/she may or may not have used weights/strength training. This is why the CONTEXT of replies is so important.

In the context of original post, I'm not sure what "very hilly" is.<HR>

No I live in a very mountainous area. I run a varity of hills not sure of the grade but I can think of a few off hand that I run where they are so steep you almost need your hands to aid in the climbing. These are on uneven x country style courses(forest trails). I have one workout I do that is a 6 mile continus climb from the bottom to the top. We had a 10k race help on that hill.

Running hills is great but like I said it only goes so far. Your body adapts to the stress it is givin. You can't tell me running up a hill is equivelent to lifting a weight because it is not. For me I can run the steepiest of hills with very little challenge to my muscles. My lungs will give out before my muscles fatigue.

Running hills with the goal of improving strength endurance is somewhat faulty. It reminds me of the guy who lifts light weights for high reps. If the muscles aren't challenged your not getting the "strength" part of the equation. Their needs to be a resistance on the muscles in order for strength adaptation to occure. Basicly by running hills your just doing an aeroobic exercise. Anything you can lift for over 25 reps with ease is just aerobic training. Running long steep hills is the same thing. The tricky part is learning how to lift using an overload stimulas so that it carries over to running. In other words I'm not so sure how getting your squat up to 3x your body weight will carry over onto the course. So that is what needs to be learned before you begin to go throw weights around.

Here is more on that-http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wiggy1.htm

Also one of the best books I have ever read on strength training for runners is this-
http://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Running-Science-Kinesiology-Performance/dp/0809298996 /ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0612705-4359045?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188736657&sr=8-1[/URL" target="_blank">



http://This message has been edited by runawayjesse (edited Sep-02-2007).

Question for runawayjesse--
What are your thoughts on weight training, especially leg strength-building exercises, and running on the same day? For example, weights first and then a long run or weights at lunch and then a more intense run (tempo or intervals) later in the day. Is it a bad idea? Does it depend on the type of run or the distance or both?

Thanks,
Lisa

quote:<HR>Originally posted by lkschiller:
Question for runawayjesse--
What are your thoughts on weight training, especially leg strength-building exercises, and running on the same day? For example, weights first and then a long run or weights at lunch and then a more intense run (tempo or intervals) later in the day. Is it a bad idea? Does it depend on the type of run or the distance or both?

Thanks,
Lisa<HR>

Thats a tricky question. You need to find a mix where the weight training doesn't subtract from your running. How you do that depends on your recovery rate, what kind of strength your training for and your running schedule.

An example of what I did this past year that worked well. In the early part of the year(base phase) when all my running was reletively easy I would do weight training in the evening following a long morning day. This is when I lifted for true strength gains(overload stimulas) followed by strength endurance(see that article I posted). The weight work breaks me down at this time. Since the running is easy it actually aids in recovery. The blood flow will remove lactait waste left from the weight work so one compliments the other quite well. As Arthur Lydiard says "let your heart do the natural message". I pay special attention to flexablity at this time as weight training can decrease your range of motion.

When I started running more workouts and entered the race specific training I eased off the weights. At this point I just droped volume keeping the intensity the same(i.e from 3 sets down to 1 set). The idea is to just maintain everything I have gained during the prior phase. As I was no longer training in a progressive overload fasion the weight work can be squeezed in anytime. Since my body has become accustom to handling 3x more total load, nothing i do at the gym is enough to break me down so requires no recovery. It's just maintance.

Keep in mind though that weight training must be specific for it to aid in running. I strongly suggest that book I linked before, it has everything you need to know about weight training for runners.

I always keep hills in my program as well. Cross country trails with uneven footing, jumping trees, leaping rocks etc.. This is the best way to improve agility IMHO and the steep hills increase power. BUT I can not run that kind of terrain without an initial layer of strength. So the initial strength and strength endurance I get through weights allows me to really make the best of my cross country/hill training. Without it I'm plodding through the forest all sloppy form, banging my bones together.With it I'm flying solid, leaping, jumping,bounding etc.. This is when you see the strength pay!

But to answer your question- If I were going to attempt to weight train and maintain hard running workouts I would run the workout in the AM and hit the gym in the PM on the same day. This ensures you are getting recovery on your easy days. In short let your running get the fresh legs. Weight training can have whatever is left.