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9142 Views 90 Replies Latest reply: Jan 10, 2009 9:02 AM by Cruns4fun RSS Go to original post 1 2 3 4 5 ... 7 Previous Next
  • donnyl Amateur 587 posts since
    Nov 9, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    30. Sep 6, 2007 6:03 PM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs
    • <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by RunningNurse:<br /><b>...I'm sure eventually I'll be as good as you and can look down on those that walk<br /></b><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><br /><br />No , you won't.

  • aharmer Rookie 452 posts since
    May 25, 2005
    Currently Being Moderated
    31. Sep 6, 2007 6:19 PM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    quote:


    Originally posted by brianfie:

    I wonder if anyone can attempt an answer to a couple of questions.

    Is taking a walk break more effective, in tems of training effect, than slowing down and keeping on running?

    Can walk-running be though of as a way to keep average HR down on a run - like MAFF.

    What are the fastest times anyone has walked-raun a marathon with something like a 9/1 ratio.

    I feel I would hate walk/running. I feel I am cultivating a steady-seady state zone to run in and stopping would be terribly disruptive. Still I would like to see an explanation for its effectiveness.

    -b


     



    Brian,

    I don't know the answer but have always assumed it was for individuals that have a poor aerobic base. Running at just about any speed takes their HR up past the point that they could ever support for the duration of a marathon. Walking breaks are the only way to keep the avg reasonable. The only other advantage I've ever considered is again for newer runners that don't have the connective tissue strength necessary to run for 4 hours straight. Theoretically the walk breaks give the connective tissues a rest, allowing them to carry the runner to the finish.

    Nothing scientific behind these observations, purely one opinion.

    ----



    My Profile[/URL" target="_blank">

    "Pain is temporary. Regret hurts forever."
    [URL=http://www.analytical-training.blogspot.com]

  • runawayjesse Rookie 538 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    33. Sep 6, 2007 8:13 PM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    I use to be a Gallowing basher. Here me out-

    Their has been some dicussion lately about the long run and "how long" it should be in terms of time. For me I always put off training for the marathon till I could run for 20 miles in 3 hours. So it took a few years of shorter distances with long runs of 2 hours on a regular baises. I guess I assumed 3 hours would be possible.

    Now that I'm training for my first marathon and have done nemerous long runs of 2.5 hours(17ish miles) and 3 runs of 3 hours(21ish miles). The 2.5 hour runs are pretty comfortable but the 3 hour runs leave me wiped and needed too long recovery. They subtract from the next weeks quality and quanity. I even get major shin splints from these runs.

    Someone put it into perspective for me like this. An elite runner takes about 10000 steps per hour(180x60=10800). I myself stride at 180 stept per minute(as do most) or 10800 steps per hour. So in an hour run an elite runner and myself both take on the same impact stress. The difference is the elite runner has a longer stride/power output etc.. If you veiw any elites schedules you will see they rarley run longer than 2 hours!! Even Ryal Hall's long run was 2 hours 15 mins! So what makes me, an average Joe think I can withstand more impact stress than that of a professional? Kinda sounds absurd huh?

    But their is a problem! For the Elite runner doing a long run of 2-2.5 hours they are running at or very close to the time it will take them to finish the race. For myself planning to finish a marathon in 3:25, if I run for 2.5 hours that still leaves me with 55 mins that I won't cover in training. One method is to get this time on your feet without the risk of injury through excessive impact stress. I think Maffetone(was it?) suggested doing something like, (using myself for example) walk for 30 mins than run for 2.5 hours then walk another 25 mins. This way I get the whole 3.25 hours on my feet without the negative effects of the "killer long run".

    Thats not at all what Galloway advocates but just something to consider. After learning from my current training I'm going to try that out.

  • willamona Rookie 387 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    34. Sep 6, 2007 9:20 PM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    LOL The next marathon should be the first one where I am finally fast enough to not deal with the Gallow-walkers.  THANK GOODNESS. 

    ----



    ***********
    My myspace[/URL" target="_blank">
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  • AKTrail Rookie 360 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    35. Dec 26, 2007 6:00 AM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    quote:


    Originally posted by brianfie:

    Is taking a walk break more effective, in tems of training effect, than slowing down and keeping on running?


     


    What do you mean by "training effect"? Sometimes walk breaks are more energy efficient than running if on big hills (maybe not ones you'd find in typical road race). They allow people to keep moving when they don't have the strength to get up the hill efficiently or when the running muscles tire. Under some conditions it's not a matter of slowing down and continuing to run, it's a matter of walking and continuing to move forward rather than stopping for the day. If "training effect" is logging time on legs, then, yes, walk breaks can be very effective.

    If you went out too fast and can't maintain your pace, then, well, slow down to what pace you should have been running. (In some cases, this might be where people are Gallowalking, but I think there's far more cases of people using it for biomechanical reasons. But I don't have any first hand knowledge of how Gallowalkers are actually using it. Haven't seen any in any of my races. People walk in my races but for terrain, usually.)

    If you're doing intervals or hill repeats or something along those lines, some people might need to walk to recover to maintain the quality part of the workout. Run / walk is a type of interval (or fartlek if unstructured).

    quote:


    Originally posted by brianfie:

    Can walk-running be though of as a way to keep average HR down on a run - like MAFF.


     


    I think so. Actually, I think with Maff you're supposed to stay under that HR completely, not just the average. (Because I'm older, my Maff is lower than the lowest HR recommended for minimal cardio benefits. So the only time I'm in range is if I'm walking. I don't use Maff training but did look at it and tried it unsuccessfully for a bit so don't take my word for it.)

    quote:


    Originally posted by brianfie:

    What are the fastest times anyone has walked-raun a marathon with something like a 9/1 ratio.


     


    You might ask on the Galloway forum. I noticed that some people asked for names of people that actually improved the way he said (somewhere around 2:30 getting faster, iirc, and a number that broke 3 after not being able to break 3 hrs with straight running) - but he never responded. Might be confidential info.

    quote:


    Originally posted by brianfie:

    I feel I would hate walk/running. I feel I am cultivating a steady-seady state zone to run in and stopping would be terribly disruptive. Still I would like to see an explanation for its effectiveness.


     


    If you're happy running straight through and can achieve all your goals that way, then have at it.

    Look at my earlier post (one with Osler references). Also, running uses muscles in a certain way; walking uses them differently. Your running muscles rest while your walking and vice versa.

    Keep in mind that some of the fastest walkers can walk through the marathon distance in less than 3:10.
    http://walking.about.com/od/racewalking/a/rwrecords.htm[/URL" target="_blank">

    So if you're looking at trying to increase your speed in a marathon, you need to consider what your running pace is as well as your walking pace - and train for both running and walking and the transition and find the right ratio for you. Some people run much faster than they walk and don't want to consider the extra hassle of dealing with both. That's fine.

    But in ultras and trail races, many of the fast runners are also fast walkers and can just walk right on by some runners. That's very demoralizing to the run-only folks to have someone walk by them.

    For other people, walk breaks allow them to continue run / walking for many hours. For those people that like to spend lots of time in the mountains, that's great that they can get lots of time on their feet. For people that just want to do their workout and get on with the rest of their life, just run and do it.

    The people that do the run / walk seriously in ultras have looked at the science behind it, but I don't have the primary references. Look at your journey runners - the ones that run the AT, PCT, etc.

    Consider that everyone has a point where they can go farther (and sometimes faster) by including walk breaks. For some, it might be 100 miles up and down a bunch of montains; for others it might be 1 mile on flat terrain while they're starting. It just depends on your state of training and your goals as to what works for you.

    [http://This message has been edited by AKTrail (edited Sep-06-2007).|http://This message has been edited by AKTrail (edited Sep-06-2007).]

  • brianfie Rookie 316 posts since
    Apr 6, 2001
    Currently Being Moderated
    36. Sep 7, 2007 7:59 AM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    AK

    Thanks for the thorough response. I think it takes an Ultra or serious trail runner to have a balanced view of walk/run !http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/smile.gif|src=http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/smile.gif|border=0!

    For the distances I run - not often over 20 miles - I use walk-breaks only when I am returning from a long period away from running.

    If I am very unfit, I power-walk up big hills. If I am too ambitious with the plan for a certain day I would power-walk the last couple of miles.

    I don't like the stop-start method, though it worked well for me when I did the C25K a few years ago.

    Considering HR training, walk run in training makes most sense if the walking is vigorous enough to keep the heart rate in the 'zone'. Perhaps this is a point often missed?

    -b

  • Who Dey010 Rookie 170 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    37. Sep 7, 2007 9:40 AM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    quote:


    Originally posted by AKTrail:

    Consider that everyone has a point where they can go farther (and sometimes faster) by including walk breaks. For some, it might be 100 miles up and down a bunch of montains; for others it might be 1 mile on flat terrain while they're starting. It just depends on your state of training and your goals as to what works for you.


     



    This is precisely the point. I used the run/walk technique a few years ago in several marathons. My training base was such that incorporating regular walk breaks allowed me to extend the distance I could complete. Today, I no longer use walk breaks, but my training base is greater. If I was to tackle a 50 miler, however, you better believe that I would use regular walk breaks from the beginning.

    I think the primary difficulty that most of Galloway's detractors have is the claim that incorporating regular walk breaks can result in a faster time for everyone ... not just those with a minimal training base.

  • NYCross Rookie 161 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    38. Sep 7, 2007 10:29 AM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    I'm a Galloway basher... but not a basher of beginning runners who extend their runs and build strength by walking. I'm not even a basher of those who exercise by walking instead of running.

    Galloway has always been a proponent of over-distance runs, even before the walk break BS. On his beginning marathon schedule, he has a long run of 26 miles before the marathon, so it makes sense that a 4 hour marathoner might need to walk some if they're following that schedule. To me (and others much more knowledgeable than I), it makes more sense to have the longest long run be by time instead of distance, but that's neither here nor there.

    The problem is that he's deceiving the public by saying that elite runners are taking walk breaks. When's the last time you saw an elite runner walking in a marathon? Not just slowing down for water, but taking scheduled walk breaks. Worse, he previously misquoted on his website a fast runner who had taken walk breaks in a marathon (it's not up anymore). That runner came on the Letsrun website and said that his PR was not even close to the marathon he had done walk breaks on (Galloway claimed the runner had been able to go faster with walk breaks) and that was verified from race results. He also said that the "race" was an overdistance workout for him, in which he ran long intervals, then came to a complete stop between sets (Galloway claimed it was an honest effort). I have no use for someone who lies to sell a training plan.

  • gregw070 Rookie 244 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    39. Sep 7, 2007 11:05 AM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    quote:


    Originally posted by qwestman:

    Tone of your post? There is no tone. It is a written response that doesn't make noise. the tone you are referring to is the theoretical tone your brain is assuming as you are reading the post. There is no audible tone coming out of a written reply.


     



    From webster's "style or manner of expression in speaking

    or writing

    "

  • Long Run Nick Amateur 277 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    40. Sep 7, 2007 12:27 PM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    I attended Jeff Galloway's running camp waaay back in 1977(I was 33 and had been running about 1 year) at Hard Labor Creek Parkoutside of Atlanta. There was no run/walk program being promoted. That being said, I commend Jeff for bringing a lot of folks into the world of marathoning with his "Gallowalking".<br /><br />I personally thank Tom Osler for his book on ultra running that made sense to me. I tried  many run/walk combos over the years. I settled on 27 min run/3 minutes walk and did that for lots of yrs and lots of ultras. It worked for me. Actually, I enjoyed running so much I would frequently run/walk 30+ mile runsjust to cover the distance. Soon to be 64, I now use a run 10 min/walk 1 minute on some of my longer runs:15+ miles. I attribute my longevity in running to training a lot slower than I raced most of the timeand the run/walk method. I doubt I would have accumulated over 64,500 miles (pretty much injury free)on the roads without that approach.

    I have coached a bunch of Newbies over the years and have found that those who trained run/walk and ran/walked marathons have run more marathons, had fewer injuries and appear to enjoy running a little more. Maybe most importantthey become lifetime runnersnot flashes in the pan.

    Run/walk/sprint/jog/skipwho cares. In Physics I recall that a body in motion tends to stay in motion. I wish more folks would become bodies in motionwho cares how fast or how far? Thanks for letting me share. Nick

  • liebling Rookie 39 posts since
    Aug 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    41. Dec 26, 2007 6:00 AM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    As a professional corporate and grant writer for the past 12 years, I wish to briefly address the side issue of tone in writing.  So, let me just say THIS about THAT . . .

    That is a playful "tone," but only to those old enough to remember where that phrase comes from, right? There is absolutely tone in writing otherwise there would be no point in using it in communication at all. BUT, the problem is that some tones can come off unintended, especially in email and on forums like this. What may feel direct and honest to the writer may seem insulting and rude to the reader, and vice versa. What may seem witty and playfully funny to the writer comes across as sharply sarcastic and hurtful to the reader, and vice versa, etc. I try to remember this when I write online and when I read as well. Sometimes, though, even for me, it's hard.

    As the Russian linguist, Valentin Voloshinov once pointed out so accurately, "A word is a bridge between myself and another . . .but if one end of the bridge depends on me, then the other depends on my addressee."

    Hope that helps soothe the issue a little.

    Liebling



    [http://This message has been edited by liebling (edited Sep-07-2007).|http://This message has been edited by liebling (edited Sep-07-2007).]

  • AKTrail Rookie 360 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    42. Sep 7, 2007 1:02 PM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    quote:


    Originally posted by brianfie:

    Thanks for the thorough response. I think it takes an Ultra or serious trail runner to have a balanced view of walk/run !http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/smile.gif|src=http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/smile.gif|border=0!


     


    It's what allows us to play in the mountains all day. But I also recognize that's not everyone's running goal. I retired 2 yrs ago, and there's no way I could have done this kind of running when I had work demands (frequent 60-80 hr wks, field work in summer).

  • AKTrail Rookie 360 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    43. Sep 7, 2007 1:11 PM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    quote:


    Originally posted by Long Run Nick:

    I have coached a bunch of Newbies over the years and have found that those who trained run/walk and ran/walked marathons have run more marathons, had fewer injuries and appear to enjoy running a little more. Maybe most importantthey become lifetime runnersnot flashes in the pan.

    Run/walk/sprint/jog/skipwho cares. In Physics I recall that a body in motion tends to stay in motion. I wish more folks would become bodies in motionwho cares how fast or how far? Thanks for letting me share. Nick



    Thanks for sharing, Nick, esp. the number that become lifetime runners.

    Your observations on the Galloway camp in 1977 are consistent with the run / walk getting about 2-3 sentences in his 1984 book, and one of those was mentioning getting the idea from Tom Osler who got it elsewhere and tested it.

  • Jim Sullivan032 Rookie 504 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    44. Sep 7, 2007 1:39 PM (in response to qwestman)
    Re: walk breaks on long runs

    quote:


    Originally posted by liebling:

    As the Russian linguist, Valentin Voloshinov once pointed out so accurately, "A word is a bridge between myself and another . . .but if one end of the bridge depends on me, then the other depends on my addressee."


     

    Yeah, but I can't help it if the other end is structurally deficient.

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