Should I Just Taper Now

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Jasonhomey

45 posts since
Jul 19, 2004

Sep 28, 2007 12:58 AM

Should I Just Taper Now

I have a marathon in three and a half weeks, and i am supposed to do a long run of 20 miles this weekend (while i am on vacation in san diego). I had a sore calf this past weekend and had to stop after a little over 10 miles instead of the 15 i was supposed to run. The weekend before, I ran 20 miles in a solid 8:15 mile pace, so i have run that distance before. My training calls for 20 miles this weekend, 15 next, 10, then marathon. If I am experiencing calf soreness right now, should i just lower my 20 miler to 15 this week? I had calf soreness earlier in the summer during my training and i took a week and a half off and it was fine when i went back to running again, though i could feel the slight loss of conditioning when i returned. I am not trying to break marathon records with my run, i just want to be under 4 hours if possible. I am just worried if i don't run the 20 miler or something like 16-18, i will lose some conditioning. My gut is telling me to run 15 this weekend, 13-15 next, then 10 the following with almost nothing the week of the marathon (when i will again be on vacation). Any help is appreciated.

Nobby063

630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

1. Sep 28, 2007 4:36 AM

in response to: Jasonhomey

quote:<HR>Originally posted by JasonHomey:
I have a marathon in three and a half weeks, and i am supposed to do a long run of 20 miles this weekend (while i am on vacation in san diego). I had a sore calf this past weekend and had to stop after a little over 10 miles instead of the 15 i was supposed to run. The weekend before, I ran 20 miles in a solid 8:15 mile pace, so i have run that distance before. My training calls for 20 miles this weekend, 15 next, 10, then marathon. If I am experiencing calf soreness right now, should i just lower my 20 miler to 15 this week? I had calf soreness earlier in the summer during my training and i took a week and a half off and it was fine when i went back to running again, though i could feel the slight loss of conditioning when i returned. I am not trying to break marathon records with my run, i just want to be under 4 hours if possible. I am just worried if i don't run the 20 miler or something like 16-18, i will lose some conditioning. My gut is telling me to run 15 this weekend, 13-15 next, then 10 the following with almost nothing the week of the marathon (when i will again be on vacation). Any help is appreciated. <HR>

You know, I don't mean to come out harsh but, for someone who can run a solid 20-miler at 8:15 pace, you don't sound like you know much about running at all. Have you run a marathon before? And if not, running 20 with a sore calf 3 weeks before, then 15 and 10 sounds way too much to me. With your 20 @ 8:15 under the belt, if you couldn't break 4 hours, it's nothing but simply due to over-training. You won't lose good fitness so quickly; in fact, I've seen many who take 4-week taper for the marathon and they are more fresh and otherwise on the race day.

So let me get this straight; you ran 20 @ 8:15 last weekend and you're going to do another 20 this weekend (with sore calf) and 15 next weekend and 10 before marathon? Way too much. Especially with a sore calf; don't even attempt 20 this weekend--even 15. Doing 15 with a sore calf won't accomplish NOTHING--it's half-hearted length and more than likely you'll further hurt yourself.

My suggestion would be this; forget long runs, just jog about nice and easily until you get over your calf problem--I'd say for 2 weeks. Then on the weekend before the marathon, go for an easy 1:30 run (forget mileage and minute-per-mile pace). I would assume you've built up decent shape by doing plenty of runs previously??? You're not going to lose it in a month (assuming you HAVE built-up). Just concentrate on fixing your calf (whatever it is). Schedules, any schedule, should be nothing but a guide. I see so many times out there; "I'm supposed to do 20 this weekend but I'm sick and injured... What do I do?" Use a common sense! I see far too many people failing marathoning nowadays from over-training (with lack of base-building). My wife is supposed to be running Twin Cities marathon in 2 weeks (less than). She was "supposed to" run 14 so I told her to cap it at 10. She did and felt great. She said others were doing 14 and many were walking in the second half... They are simply too tired! They are doing 10 this weekend--while my wife would be doing a 5k race to sharpen plus an easy 1:30 to finish off. By the way, you should still be doing SOMETHING in the final week--you can certainly take a couple of days off but I'd still go for an easy jog.

Good luck--and remember to take honey 3 days leading up to the marathon. Hydrate yourself well--hydration starts a couple of days before the marathon as well; not at the water station at 20 miles. Be careful if you're on vacation on the final week--I don't know for how long or until how many days before the race; I almost hurt my back sleeping on the matress that's too soft. Also if you're flying for a long time, more of the reason you should go for an easy jog to "shake it off" and get loose. I found out myself that I perform MUCH better if I continue to jog easily several days leading up to the day instead of doing nothing.

92heelgrad

180 posts since
Oct 9, 2005

2. Sep 28, 2007 5:39 AM

in response to: Jasonhomey

First question I have is why take honey three days out Nobby? Is it just part of carbo loading? Just curious...

More on topic, I agree with Nobby about taking it easy at this point. One of the many things I have learned over my last five years of marathon training is how to listen to my body and avoid injury altogether. I have become acutely aware of my ITB, my popliteus muscle, quads, calves, ribs, you name it I am in tune with it. The whole point of training is to get you to the marathon fit AND uninjured. Considering that any given workout will only increase your fitness by 1%, there is no sense in pushing this late in your training, the risks are too high for the reward you are seeking.

If it were me, I would bag the long run this weekend, and just do a nice 30-40 minute easy run, and continue to do this until the soreness abates. There is only so much fitness you can lose at this point, and if you go into the marathon with a cranky calf, just imagine what it will feel like after 26.2.

------------------
My Profile[/URL" target="_blank">

Nobby063

630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

3. Sep 28, 2007 7:34 AM

in response to: Jasonhomey

quote:<HR>Originally posted by 92heelgrad:
First question I have is why take honey three days out Nobby? Is it just part of carbo loading? Just curious...
<HR>

Honey is almost pure carbohydrate with essential minerals and vitamins to go along with it. You may take in carbs when you eat pasta and rice but if you don't have necessary vitamins and mineral, you may not be able to fully utilize those carbs. Honey is supposed to have all that. Besides, it's so much easier to take a couple of spoonfuls of honey than, say, baked poteto--easier to digest.

Supposedly, taking 200gm (or 8 ounces) of honey 3 days prior to the marathon would give you the best result. Of course, assuming honey is compatible to your digestive system, that is...

Abadabajev

231 posts since
Oct 4, 1999

4. Sep 28, 2007 7:45 AM

in response to: Jasonhomey

quote:<HR>Originally posted by JasonHomey:
<HR>

Hello Jason,

You posted in a previous thread why run 20 miles at 8:30 pace when you can do 20 miles at 8 minute instead. 30 seconds does not seem/sound alot but you are forgetting one little thing. Fatigue accumulates mysteriously and silently in the background. What you could do before, now, will limp on one good calf.

Bag all your runs. Do not attempt to run 20 miles on 1 calf. The good calf will have to compensate for the lack of effort from the bad one. You're going to injure the good one as well. If you do, there will be no marathon for you in 3 1/2 weeks time.

Jasonhomey

45 posts since
Jul 19, 2004

5. Dec 26, 2007 6:31 AM

in response to: Jasonhomey

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nobby:
You know, I don't mean to come out harsh but, for someone who can run a solid 20-miler at 8:15 pace, you don't sound like you know much about running at all. Have you run a marathon before? And if not, running 20 with a sore calf 3 weeks before, then 15 and 10 sounds way too much to me. With your 20 @ 8:15 under the belt, if you couldn't break 4 hours, it's nothing but simply due to over-training. You won't lose good fitness so quickly; in fact, I've seen many who take 4-week taper for the marathon and they are more fresh and otherwise on the race day.

So let me get this straight; you ran 20 @ 8:15 last weekend and you're going to do another 20 this weekend (with sore calf) and 15 next weekend and 10 before marathon? Way too much. Especially with a sore calf; don't even attempt 20 this weekend--even 15. Doing 15 with a sore calf won't accomplish NOTHING--it's half-hearted length and more than likely you'll further hurt yourself.

My suggestion would be this; forget long runs, just jog about nice and easily until you get over your calf problem--I'd say for 2 weeks. Then on the weekend before the marathon, go for an easy 1:30 run (forget mileage and minute-per-mile pace). I would assume you've built up decent shape by doing plenty of runs previously??? You're not going to lose it in a month (assuming you HAVE built-up). Just concentrate on fixing your calf (whatever it is). Schedules, any schedule, should be nothing but a guide. I see so many times out there; "I'm supposed to do 20 this weekend but I'm sick and injured... What do I do?" Use a common sense! I see far too many people failing marathoning nowadays from over-training (with lack of base-building). My wife is supposed to be running Twin Cities marathon in 2 weeks (less than). She was "supposed to" run 14 so I told her to cap it at 10. She did and felt great. She said others were doing 14 and many were walking in the second half... They are simply too tired! They are doing 10 this weekend--while my wife would be doing a 5k race to sharpen plus an easy 1:30 to finish off. By the way, you should still be doing SOMETHING in the final week--you can certainly take a couple of days off but I'd still go for an easy jog.

Good luck--and remember to take honey 3 days leading up to the marathon. Hydrate yourself well--hydration starts a couple of days before the marathon as well; not at the water station at 20 miles. Be careful if you're on vacation on the final week--I don't know for how long or until how many days before the race; I almost hurt my back sleeping on the matress that's too soft. Also if you're flying for a long time, more of the reason you should go for an easy jog to "shake it off" and get loose. I found out myself that I perform MUCH better if I continue to jog easily several days leading up to the day instead of doing nothing.<HR>

I am definitely not a super experienced runner, but I have put the mileage in this year more than other times i have tried training for the marathon. My main sport is tennis and I avoided it altogether for the last 5 months (which is hard since my profession is teaching tennis). The wear and tear on my legs from running and tennis at the same time was too much. I think I am going to go for a 45 minute to 1 hour jog on my vacation this week and see how it goes. I have been smart on other runs, curtailing an 18 miler to 14 before and a 15 to 10 last weekend, but thats the part that worries me, losing a little mileage here and there and then it all adds up on race day at mile 22 or something. But I just have to have faith that my previous running has made me ready for the race. I have had a problem slowing down when i run, so i will have to make a conscious effort to not run too fast.

In an answer to your other question, the week of my marathon, its just a trip in time zone to new england for three days (tuesday - thursday). I was planning on a 30-35 minute jog that wednesday morning to just get out and sweat.

On a final note, strangely enough, yesterday i just went out for a 4 mile jog to see how the calf was feeling. It was a little sore at the beginning even after extensive stretching, but then by the last mile, it had completely loosened up and didn't bother me any more. That gives me confidence it isn't that serious (a well founded theory or just my way of convincing myself its not as bad as it could be?). I assume the prescription for my little running injury is a lot of ice even on non-running days. I am only concerned about the calf because last fall i tore my plantaris muscle playing tennis right before a big tournament. At first i thought i tore my calf muscle but was able to play on it the following weekend at a tournament (with very limited mobility obviously) so i have been nervous about my calves every since that. The pain this time is on the opposite calf though. Thanks for the advice everyone.

http://This message has been edited by JasonHomey (edited Sep-28-2007).

Nobby063

630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

6. Dec 26, 2007 6:31 AM

in response to: Jasonhomey

quote:<HR>Originally posted by JasonHomey:
I am definitely not a super experienced runner, but I have put the mileage in this year more than other times i have tried training for the marathon. My main sport is tennis and I avoided it altogether for the last 5 months (which is hard since my profession is teaching tennis). The wear and tear on my legs from running and tennis at the same time was too much. I think I am going to go for a 45 minute to 1 hour jog on my vacation this week and see how it goes. I have been smart on other runs, curtailing an 18 miler to 14 before and a 15 to 10 last weekend, but thats the part that worries me, losing a little mileage here and there and then it all adds up on race day at mile 22 or something. But I just have to have faith that my previous running has made me ready for the race. I have had a problem slowing down when i run, so i will have to make a conscious effort to not run too fast.

In an answer to your other question, the week of my marathon, its just a trip in time zone to new england for three days (tuesday - thursday). I was planning on a 30-35 minute jog that wednesday morning to just get out and sweat.

On a final note, strangely enough, yesterday i just went out for a 4 mile jog to see how the calf was feeling. It was a little sore at the beginning even after extensive stretching, but then by the last mile, it had completely loosened up and didn't bother me any more. That gives me confidence it isn't that serious (a well founded theory or just my way of convincing myself its not as bad as it could be?). I assume the prescription for my little running injury is a lot of ice even on non-running days. I am only concerned about the calf because last fall i tore my plantaris muscle playing tennis right before a big tournament. At first i thought i tore my calf muscle but was able to play on it the following weekend at a tournament (with very limited mobility obviously) so i have been nervous about my calves every since that. The pain this time is on the opposite calf though. Thanks for the advice everyone.

http://This message has been edited by JasonHomey (edited Sep-28-2007).<HR>

Oops! Are you that tennis guy I irritated on the other thread!? You must think I'm the biggest pain in a butt! ;o)

I'll be nice to you, whether you are the guy or not; go to near-by chiropractice office and ask if they use Kinesio Tape (check out www.kinesiotaping.com).[/URL" target="_blank"> If they do, have them apply it on your calf the day before your marathon. It sounds like your calf problem is not as serious (though my suggestion still is not to go with it). This thing really works if applied correctly--the pain disappears. I've used it numerous occasions; I know the inventor; and I'm getting some for Alan Culpepper who also swears by it. If I have it at hand, I'll send you some with the instruction and see if you can do it yourself (it's a bit tricky on your calf but I've done it many times myself and, 2 out of 3 times, it works).

I run on my toes (or forefoot to be more precise) and I've had my share of calf problems. It seems if the pain eases as you continue to run, it's not as bad--you can actually loosen up. Just warm-up A LOT (or in the case of running a marathon, take first 3 miles as warm-up) and try to loosen up by massaging (I personally like Stick). If your calf problem is like this, actually nice easy jog would help. Don't do it if it hurts, but if it just gives you tight feeling, jogging could loosen up.

But seriously, try Kinesio tape. I call it "magic" tape. If you see the image of Naoko Takahashi when she won Tokyo women's marathon 2 years ago, she had it on her calf--she actually had torn muscles in her calf.

Jasonhomey

45 posts since
Jul 19, 2004

7. Sep 28, 2007 1:27 PM

in response to: Jasonhomey

QUOTEOriginally posted by Nobby:
[B] Oops! Are you that tennis guy I irritated on the other thread!? You must think I'm the biggest pain in a butt! ;o)

I dont think you are a pain in the butt, i think you know a lot more about this stuff than i do and that we probably started off on the wrong foot on the other thread. I am very appreciative of the advice you have given me on the threads. I will look in to what you are talking about.

icurt06

51 posts since
Jul 9, 2007

8. Sep 30, 2007 11:41 PM

in response to: Jasonhomey

A free download from Marathon Breakthrough can answer a lot of your questions.

http://www.marathon-breakthrough.com[/URL" target="_blank">

brianfie

316 posts since
Apr 6, 2001

9. Sep 30, 2007 11:51 PM

in response to: Jasonhomey

quote:<HR>Originally posted by icurt06:
A free download from Marathon Breakthrough can answer a lot of your questions.

http://www.marathon-breakthrough.com[/URL" target="_blank"><HR>

Yawn..

Never look at anything from someone who writes a sentance like this:

"Plus Receive Three Extremely Powerful Never Before Released Bonuses!"

Jasonhomey

45 posts since
Jul 19, 2004

10. Oct 4, 2007 9:35 AM

in response to: Jasonhomey

quote:<HR>Originally posted by 92heelgrad:

If it were me, I would bag the long run this weekend, and just do a nice 30-40 minute easy run, and continue to do this until the soreness abates. There is only so much fitness you can lose at this point, and if you go into the marathon with a cranky calf, just imagine what it will feel like after 26.2.

<HR>

I ended up running a 50 minute segment on my vacation and there was no pain. I kind of cut back on the running also because i ended up walking 12 miles one day in san diego and went to the zoo the day before with a ton of walking too. I ran 4 miles yesterday at a very leisurely pace and plan to run tomorrow for around 45-50 minutes and about the same this sunday, maybe closer to one hour this time. Thanks again for the advice, the calf feels better, but then again, i haven't really challenged it. I have a feeling it will crop up again, it always seems to over the last year at the worst times.

Nobby063

630 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

11. Oct 4, 2007 4:25 PM

in response to: Jasonhomey

quote:<HR>Originally posted by JasonHomey:
I ended up running a 50 minute segment on my vacation and there was no pain. I kind of cut back on the running also because i ended up walking 12 miles one day in san diego and went to the zoo the day before with a ton of walking too. I ran 4 miles yesterday at a very leisurely pace and plan to run tomorrow for around 45-50 minutes and about the same this sunday, maybe closer to one hour this time. Thanks again for the advice, the calf feels better, but then again, i haven't really challenged it. I have a feeling it will crop up again, it always seems to over the last year at the worst times.<HR>

Jason:

Let me tell you my own experience though this would most probably not help you for the up-coming marathon.

I developed a bad case of Achilles tendonitis about 6 or 7 years ago. I had some work issue as well and my running got really sporadic. When I started to come back to running, my Achilles problem was still there and, on the top of that, I had this irritating calf problem. I read an article (I think it was written by John Parker, Jr.) called "Calf Heart Attack". In it, he talked about this "micro-scopic tears" in your calf that acts like a hidden dynamite; it just all of a sudden pops. It was just like that. I would go for an easy 20 minutes jog (I mean, really EASY) and all of a sudden, POP! Could hardly walk! Took a few weeks off and massage the **** out of my calf (it was TIGHT!). Felt okay so started out very slowly again and...POP! Rest didn't help. It just kept coming back. I went to the drastic measure and started out VERY SLOWLY in the minimalist shoes; gradually and slowly and... I can't really remember what happened or how long it really took; but now I'm running twice a day freely. Achilles is still sore (but I've since learnt to cope with the pain...) but I hadn't had ANY calf problem for ages.

There's NO injury problem that you cannot overcome eventually.

Jasonhomey

45 posts since
Jul 19, 2004

12. Oct 6, 2007 3:48 PM

in response to: Jasonhomey

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nobby:
Jason:

Let me tell you my own experience though this would most probably not help you for the up-coming marathon.

I developed a bad case of Achilles tendonitis about 6 or 7 years ago. I had some work issue as well and my running got really sporadic. When I started to come back to running, my Achilles problem was still there and, on the top of that, I had this irritating calf problem. I read an article (I think it was written by John Parker, Jr.) called "Calf Heart Attack". In it, he talked about this "micro-scopic tears" in your calf that acts like a hidden dynamite; it just all of a sudden pops. It was just like that. I would go for an easy 20 minutes jog (I mean, really EASY) and all of a sudden, POP! Could hardly walk! Took a few weeks off and massage the **** out of my calf (it was TIGHT!). Felt okay so started out very slowly again and...POP! Rest didn't help. It just kept coming back. I went to the drastic measure and started out VERY SLOWLY in the minimalist shoes; gradually and slowly and... I can't really remember what happened or how long it really took; but now I'm running twice a day freely. Achilles is still sore (but I've since learnt to cope with the pain...) but I hadn't had ANY calf problem for ages.

There's NO injury problem that you cannot overcome eventually. <HR>

I have always had really poor flexibility. I knew once I got over 30, that would probably come back to haunt me and to some extent, it has. I never had calf problems before or any health problems for that matter before I started running, but I didn't start running till around 29-30, so I figure any problems coincide with age, not because of running.

As I told you before, i play a lot of tennis. Playing tennis causes certain injuries that are very common among non-tennis players, tendinitis, tennis elbow, shoulder problems, ect. I have never had any of those, and have never had any back or knee problems, knock on wood. I have also never had any problems with achilles, which is very common in higher level tennis players. I have known many who do have that problem and their description doesn't sound like a lot of fun. My problem is mainly the calf. It doesn't radiate down to the achilles (yet?-lol). I think i told you last year that I tore my plantaris muscle in my left leg (current problem is in the right) so I have a recent history of problems there.

I have basically figured that since my training has been curtailed over the final 4 weeks of the marathon that I am going to be walking large portions of the final 4-6 miles. If I don't have to, thats great, but if I do, thats ok too. Well, its almost two weeks now to the marathon. I originally was scheduled for 15 miles tomorrow, but that will probably end up being a nice and slow 8 miles. Hopefully my body holds up till the marathon.

Sep 28, 2007 12:58 AM

Should I Just Taper Now

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