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10 Replies Last post: Oct 13, 2007 12:23 AM by run4262  
Click to view monilark's profile Pro 146 posts since
Jan 12, 2005
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Oct 11, 2007 12:35 PM

Need Everyone's Help In Convincing My Friend That LSRs Are Good

My friend and I are currently training for a half marathon in December. She's run one before (years ago) and this will be my first. She and I are both 40 years old, we're casual runners, having run about 30 5Ks and a couple 10Ks.

She has not been following a training program, but has been running probably 5-6 days per week for the past 8 weeks or so. The problem is, all of her runs look like tempo runs - she runs up to 6 miles, at about an average pace of 8:20 per mile. She has no long, slow runs in her training. I have sent her training programs and have told her REPEATEDLY that she needs to slow down and add distance runs to her routine. I think she has finally accepted that, and she's going to meet with me this weekend so we can run together.

But I would like YOUR HELP in convincing her that this is the smart thing to do (she does know it, but any added knowledge helps). She's a Harvard trained MD, so get as physiologically complex as you'd like - or keep it simple - no worries! I'd love to hear from folks who run a 7:00 min/mile marathon or half marathon, for example, who slow down to 9:00 min/miles (or even slower, heck!) in training. Although, please do keep in mind that we're only training for the half, so our longest "long run" may only be 12 miles or so.

I used to think like she did - but after reading so much from the awesome runners on Cool Running, I changed my ways! It was REALLY tough to slow down at first - but I later discovered that it was so tough because I really wasn't in good as good shape as I thought I was! Once I added long runs and increased my mileage, ALL of my runs became easier.

Now ... onto convincing my friend. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!
Click to view Diesel88's profile Pro 159 posts since
Sep 1, 2004
1. Oct 11, 2007 1:50 PM in response to: monilark
Re: Need Everyone's Help In Convincing My Friend That LSRs Are Good
Here is one perspective. A disclaimer, my training goals are likely different from you and your friend!

I got stuck in the 'mostly speed / tempo work' back when running was for my weight loss. It made sense....run faster, burn more calories. Well, as one gets more 'into' running they tend to do more research and discover some really great ways to enjoy this sport.

Included in that 'research' was reading the wisdom many have to offer on these boards. That got me interested in MHR related training. I find those runs great at increasing a good fitness (aerobic) base. I also find the endurance I have as a result is fantastic, presumably from burning fat as fuel and not suger / carbs. I still throw some tempos in once every 2 weeks or so to have some fun but 95% of my runs are LS. My injuries are a thing of the past but I am logging more miles then ever.

LSRs are great to build a base, to log more miles and do so without pushing into the risk of injury.

Not sure if this helped but this is what has worked for me.
Click to view arlahile's profile Pro 145 posts since
Sep 22, 2006
2. Dec 26, 2007 6:51 AM in response to: monilark
Re: Need Everyone's Help In Convincing My Friend That LSRs Are Good
I know how stubborn the overly-educated can be. I'm a PhD college biology instructor with a background in physiology. My running partner is a physician. Despite our backgrounds, we were both initially stupid about our training, and it took injury to change our ways. I'm a lot slower than your friend, but the pattern is there: I was running training runs at about 9:30/mi for the first few months and then became injured. Now I run at 12 - 13:00/mi in training and ran my latest 5 miler at 9:13 pace, and the HM at 10:30.

Tell her that that she can grow more mitochondria and a better vascular system to support O2 delivery. The physiological changes are demand-dependent, therefore, she needs to work below her anaerobic threshold. Consistent, long, slow runs will accomplish this and at the same time, minimize the risk of injury. In turn, she'll be able to run faster (do more work) at the same level of perceived effort. Many say it takes years to build a good base.

I would recommend Timothy Noakes book, "The Lore of Running", which is chock-full of hard data. Noakes holds an MD and is a research scientist with expertise in exercise physiology.

http://www.amazon.com/Lore-Running-Timothy-D-Noakes/dp/0873229592[/URL" target="_blank">

She should check out the section in there about bone remodeling. Noakes points out that it takes about 3 months for the bones to adapt to the changing stresses of running, and during this time a lot of bone matrix breakdown by osteoclasts is going on - so this is about the same time window within which many new runners become injured. For me, it was a stress fracture, plantar fascitis, and a strained hamstring. Your friend, at 8 weeks into her program, is currently vulnerable.

Good luck, have fun and don't get hurt!

Arla

http://This message has been edited by arlahile (edited Oct-11-2007).
Click to view mrinertia's profile Legend 1,356 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
3. Oct 11, 2007 2:21 PM in response to: monilark
Re: Need Everyone's Help In Convincing My Friend That LSRs Are Good
When you say all of her runs look like tempo runs, what are you basing that on? Do you know what her race pace is for a 5k or 10k?
Click to view pismodiver's profile Amateur 38 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
4. Oct 11, 2007 2:40 PM in response to: monilark
Re: Need Everyone's Help In Convincing My Friend That LSRs Are Good
Point her to the Basebuilding thread on this forum and leitnerj's FAQ link in his sig block.

It's not intuitive at all how one could train slow and race fast, but that's the facts. I did a 5K in 27:23 (8:50 mpm) and never trained any faster than 11:30 mpm.
Click to view catwoman73's profile Pro 105 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
5. Oct 11, 2007 4:45 PM in response to: monilark
Re: Need Everyone's Help In Convincing My Friend That LSRs Are Good
quote:<HR>Originally posted by pismodiver:
Point her to the Basebuilding thread on this forum and leitnerj's FAQ link in his sig block.

It's not intuitive at all how one could train slow and race fast, but that's the facts. I did a 5K in 27:23 (8:50 mpm) and never trained any faster than 11:30 mpm.
<HR>


Agreed.

I've been running since July '06, and like your friend, had a tendancy to run every run like it was a race. I completed my first HM in May of this year, in a time of 1:56:07. I was very pleased with my time, but not at all pleased with how it left me feeling at the finish line. Everything hurt, and I couldn't walk up stairs for at least a week afterwards. Even the thought of running anything longer than 13.1 miles made me cringe.

Then, in July, I came across the basebuilding thread. I decided to give Maffetone training a shot, because I really, really wanted to increase my weekly mileage, in hopes of being able to run a marathon someday without killing myself. So, all of my runs since then have been at a HR of <146. I had to slow down A LOT in order to achieve this, but despite the frustration, I stuck with it. Since I started this type of training 14 weeks ago, my weekly mileage has more than doubled, and I am free of injuries, and don't even have any little aches and pains anymore. Running 13.1 miles is a piece of cake now, whereas it was brutally painful when I ran every run like I was being chased. And not to mention, my pace is quite a bit faster at a HR of 146 than it was 14 weeks ago. I am running my second HM on Nov. 4th, and even though it is a more challenging course than my first one was, I am 100% sure that I am going to complete it with a PR. All this from running slowly!

Basically, there's nothing wrong with doing speedwork, but doing the vast majority of your miles slowly is the best possible way to remain injury-free, increase your mileage, and keep running for a lifetime!

Good luck!

Pam

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Click to view formationflier's profile Legend 989 posts since
Oct 13, 2007
6. Oct 11, 2007 6:58 PM in response to: monilark
Re: Need Everyone's Help In Convincing My Friend That LSRs Are Good
Click to view dgb2n's profile Pro 139 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
8. Oct 11, 2007 7:22 PM in response to: monilark
Re: Need Everyone's Help In Convincing My Friend That LSRs Are Good
I'm not as disciplined about slow runs as many on this site but I'll invite you to check out my mileage log as evidence of routinely running at least half my runs slower.

This week, 4 mile at 10:30 per mile pace. 10 miler over the weekend at 8 minutes per mile average. Haven't run a 5K in a while but I'd probably be somewhere between 22 and 23 minutes.

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My Running Log[/URL" target="_blank">

My User Profile[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view Long Run Nick's profile Legend 265 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
9. Oct 12, 2007 9:04 AM in response to: monilark
Re: Need Everyone's Help In Convincing My Friend That LSRs Are Good
An old saying sometimes rings pretty true: Smart people don't need advice: dumb people don't heed it. Have fun. Hey, it is only a race. Isn't it great that both of you can run? Lots of folks continue to do the same things and expect different results. Nick
Click to view run4262's profile Pro 69 posts since
Jan 12, 2007
10. Oct 13, 2007 12:23 AM in response to: monilark
Re: Need Everyone's Help In Convincing My Friend That LSRs Are Good
I think you will both get the best results with a plan that includes a balance of long, steady-state runs, tempo runs, speed workouts, and recovery runs. The amount of each depends on your running history and goals.

If you are training to complete your first half marathon (as you are) I would run about 90% of my mileage at a comfortable pace and gradually increase my long run to a comfortable 14-16 miles. Since your friend has only run one, and you are both casual runners, I would think you'd both adopt this approach. Keep in mind though, that easy comfortable pace may not be the same for both of you.

If, on the other hand, you are training to race a half marathon, I would include a weekly tempo that starts at 2-3 miles and builds to 9-10 miles, and include a few long runs where you run a portion at half-marathon goal pace, such as 14 with the first 8 comfortable, last 6 at pace, 16 with 8 at pace, etc. The runner in this category should already have the distance base before starting the more demanding tempo workouts.

Good luck with your race.
Bill