quote:<HR>Originally posted by bigdave10000:
HR Avg AVG PACE Miles for the month
147 9:21 98 May
144 9:13 146 June
141 9:11 210 July
140 8:44 286 Aug
138 8:37 291 Sept
139 8:32 207 Oct so far

<HR>

BigDave,

Great progress! This is the kind of stuff that people need to see. My progress was somewhat similar - although I started around 9:40 at 100 mi/month - and peaked at 8:40 at 357 miles for the month. At that point, I started getting muscle issues, so backed down a bit. I just finished my "best" marathon in 3:28 - not my fastest time; but my best marathon (fastest time was 13 years ago).

Good luck in the continued progress. What have you done to minimize the chances the heart issues won't recur?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by leitnerj:
It seems as though for most people, MAF is around 60-70% HRmax,
at least for those who have sent me their data and posted here.
For those with a relatively low max heart rate (which seems to be
much more unusual than a high max heart rate for some reason),
it will probably be a high percentage. Likewise for those with very
high anaerobic thresholds relative to max heart rate. For most with
high max heart rates, the MAF will be at the lower percentage. I
forgot how you determined your MAF - did you have a vo2max
test and choose the point where RQ < 0.85? You're not using
Maffetone's formula, right?

<HR>

Pretty much. I got a full gym lab testing over a decade ago - and at that time tested in for what would qualify as MAF at around 150 - or just under. They measured lactate curves and oxygen usage via blood testing and respiration testing. I got used to the feel of that effort. I even set my monitor to beep at 150, and I'd slow down. At that time, I was fit, and on the verge of running what is still my marathon PR. They did test my max HR at that time (192).

Now, I'm noticeably older, my max HR is 187 (tested empirically - not in a gym). I haven't been retested for various lactate points, etc... but running at 144 feels the same as running at MAF did then. I guess my max HR dropped by 5 beats over the last 13-15 years, and my MAF is still about the same percentage of my max HR.

I'm actually quite stunned that people's MAF is such a low percentage of max HR and that marathon race pace is a lower percentage than I cited. I know for me, having MAF at 77% and marathon race pace at 87% is on the high side - but I've never had a high Vo2 max no matter how hard I train - but I can hold a high intensity. My friends who went through the same testing ended up with MAFs of around 75% and marathon pace HRs of about 85% - so I was high end - but not by much.

Maybe you're slacking, Jesse. If I can run marathons at 87% of max HR, and I have friends who do it at 85% - why can't you. <grin>.

Hmm... learn something new.



http://This message has been edited by dfcameron (edited Oct-24-2007).

Sorry to jump off the current discussion, but I have a quick question.

Pre race routine:
I understand why one needs to avoid carbs before a training run. My question is, should I eat my breakfast 3 hours before the marathon, then avoid carbs until the start? I want my body to start the race using as much fat as possible. My thinking is that if my blood is loaded with glycogen (from Gatorade, sweets, maybe a doughnut), then that will be the preferred fuel source from the start.

Should I start Gatorade at mile 3 or 4? Or is it safe to take in carbs right up to start time?

quote:<HR>Originally posted by leitnerj:
You may want to take a look at the previous version of the
thread because there was a discussion of that. Different opinions
from different people, but I can tell you that there is no formula
using either that will work for most everyone. That is, you can't
add some number of beats to MAF HR nor can you take a set %
of max heart rate and say that's the right marathon heart rate. The
best formula I can give would only apply to an experienced marathoner
that can run the marathon at a high percentage of anaerobic threshold
(say, 95-97%). MAF HR is around 85% of anaerobic threshold, so
if one has an accurate and honest assessment of MAF, AND has
enough experience running marathons to run at, say, 95% of AT,
then the following formula might get one close on a good day:

HR_marathon ~ (100/85)*(HR_MAF)*0.95 = (19/17)*(HR_MAF)

Hence, a range would be between about 1.12 and 1.14 of MAF.
I can go a bit higher, either because my actual MAF heart rate
is a bit higher (since I've been training at low HRs for so long)
or because I can just sustain closer to anaerobic threshold for
a long time because of the number of marathons I've run.
This is just a rough guess - one should not go into a marathon
with any of tight restrictions on heart rate, at least not without
a lot of experience running marathons with a monitor on.

<HR>

There is another variable here that is not fully considered by most runners.

The percent of MHR that a runner can run a marathon depends on how long it will take to complete the race. The longer it takes to complete the race the lower the heart rate a runner can sustain. In The Lore of Running Noakes, has a chart (P 107 4th Ed) showing the maximum percent of VO2 max that a runner can sustain for various periods of time while glycogen is being depleted. For example, a 4 hr marathoner can sustain about 75% of VO2 max and still retain enough glycogen to finish the race. On the other hand, someone racing near 2 hrs can run at around 85% of VO2 max under similar conditions. If one believes there is a direct relationship between percent of MHR and percent of VO2 max then it becomes a simple matter to figure out what percent of MHR one can run at by plugging in the time required to race.

In my case, I think I can finish in about 4 hrs, so I would race at 75% of VO2 max or thereabouts, which corresponds to about 80% of MHR. This relatively low number might surprise people who are faster, and who can race much closer to their lactate threshold. However I think for most runners it is fairly accurate, and explains why so many slower runners continue to hit the wall in spite of careful training and good aerobic capacity.

FWIW my MHR is 184 (observed) and I am training to race a marathon (Tokyo) at no more than 145, and I would not expect to see that high a heart rate until about 45 min into the race. Much of my training is very close to that heart rate. I will peak at around 12 hrs per week, with maybe 40 min higher than that number, but with several hours AT that number, about 3 hrs around 130, and the rest around 140. All of these HR numbers are at current temperatures, which are in the 0C to 10C range right now.

I've re-read Jimmy's posts here and his training - and I've come to the conclusion that mine is quite similar. I had a couple people ask me about my training prior to my BQ marathon - first time after 26 years of running marathons.

I actually keep it on-line at www.mysportweb.com[/URL" target="_blank"> My handle is "Palatine Slogger". You can get the details there. 2 years ago I ran a total of 1200 miles or so for the year (2005). In 2006, I ran between 2300-2400 miles for the year - got a nice gradual base going. Kept at the 50 MPW for the spring. Then, the gist of it is that I ran a hard relay in June; one of those team relays covering 200 miles - where I did 18 of it - and hard. After a recovery week, I ran about 14 weeks in a row moving very quickly from 55-60 MPW to 80 MPW and sustained the 80 MPW for all but 1 week. Then I added anaerobic work (mainly interval or tempo training at faster than marathon pace - but keeping barely aerobic) and dropped the mileage back to 55-60 for 3 weeks or so. Then I did a 21 mile week with one hard tempo run and two easy runs. Then I took an entire week off running prior to the marathon.

I still believe a big part of this is running at below lactate buildup point (for me - about 77% of max HR, or MAF, or whatever works) and building that aerobic base. Yet... I do believe, like Jimmy, on the need to build up the faster stuff for a few weeks. Also, no substitute for mental toughness. My 87% of max HR seems atypical for this group. Whereas there's certainly genetics involved - despite my teasing - Jesse likely couldn't do it although he's faster - sustaining is hard. Its easy to back off and say "phew" I just can't keep it going. Well... I know a couple of national class marathoners; and they run marathons at 88% of max HR - and its not easy - its a mental battle.

But... all the mental in the world doesn't matter if you haven't prepared aerobically with some faster tune-ups.

Kudos to jjwaverly for his solid approach - worked for me too - and can likely work for everyone.

Just remember, though, we are all individuals and formulas are only a starting point. Don't get too hung up on them.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by dfcameron:
I've re-read Jimmy's posts here and his training - and I've come to the conclusion that mine is quite similar....

I still believe a big part of this is running at below lactate buildup point (for me - about 77% of max HR, or MAF, or whatever works) and building that aerobic base. Yet... I do believe, like Jimmy, on the need to build up the faster stuff for a few weeks. Also, no substitute for mental toughness. My 87% of max HR seems atypical for this group. Whereas there's certainly genetics involved - despite my teasing - Jesse likely couldn't do it although he's faster - sustaining is hard. Its easy to back off and say "phew" I just can't keep it going. Well... I know a couple of national class marathoners; and they run marathons at 88% of max HR - and its not easy - its a mental battle.

But... all the mental in the world doesn't matter if you haven't prepared aerobically with some faster tune-ups. <HR>

Your training is similar...do you also wear the Joan Benoit Samuelson Signature Training Panties?

I swear by the comfort, wicking levels, and silky feel.

There is no doubt in my mind that in order to be in racing shape, I have to either race or do some race-pace tempo runs, lactate threshold tempos, and Fartlekian stuff or a few intervals, BUT only after a decent base period. My experience with MAF is that at the end of the base period, I've made some progress at those HR's, but my legs don't feel very fast. I need a few LT runs to light the wick of the massive oil lamp that I've filled in the past 8-16 weeks.

It was important for me to figure out a system where I could approximate race pace before the race, so I can make a plan. I can't do that without race-pace tempos, LT runs, and my HRM. Once I got the pace plan, I try to achieve it without the HRM. I don't need the thing getting in my head during a race telling me to slow down. My heart rate will go high in the last 5 miles of a marathon, if I'm giving it everything--over LT. It gets as high as 5k HR and in the very end near the MHR. I wore the HRM once in a hard marathon to get training info. For one brief period, I let the number I saw contribute to a slowdown (Sugarloaf 2006), I picked it up and was later very surprised by how hard I could go pace-wise and HR-wise down the stretch.

Even though there are physical limitations, seems that the mind can sometimes bend them a little bit, if you stop thinking and let go (mental toughness is the ability to do that).

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by dfcameron:
Nah... probably wouldn't work for me. But, tell ya what, I'll even root for the Red Sox in the World Series in your honor.

<HR>

One pitch at a time. It ain't over til it's over...
Go Sox!


--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

profile[/URL" target="_blank">