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Click to view bluelake's profile Pro 66 posts since
Oct 25, 2007
90. Oct 26, 2007 3:20 PM in response to: formationflier
This is not a MAF question, but I know many of you have read Maffetone's books. What do you think about his philosophy on running shoes? Do you prefer cheap shoes with less cushioning? I'm a heal striker and always buy those with good heel cushion. Maybe I'm contributing to this type of strike by with this type of shoe.
Click to view runawayjesse's profile Legend 538 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
91. Oct 26, 2007 3:49 PM in response to: formationflier
Thanks for your reply Jesse.
Click to view runawayjesse's profile Legend 538 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
92. Dec 26, 2007 7:01 AM in response to: formationflier
quote:<HR>Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
My page 1 contribution:

First, the Maffetone method, developed by Dr. Phillip Maffetone, is about creating a healthy, fit athlete. Being healthy means not running yourself into over-training, injury, and a weakened immune system (colds, flu, etc.). Maffetone wants to see you achieve your potential, but in a way that doesn't over-stress your body.


There are three phases:

1. Aerobic
2. Anaerobic
3. Rest, Recovery, Vacation

*********Aerobic Phase********************

6-time Ironman Tri Champ, Mark Allen, calls this the PATIENCE phase. This is an aerobic base-training phase run at or under a heart rate of 180-age (MAF). Why patience? Because 99% of the runners who first do this will be training slower than they ever have in their life, and it defies the current logic and beliefs of "no pain, no gain." It can be ego-busting and maddening at first, producing much whining in these threads.

Just run all your miles at a pace that keeps your heart rate at or below your MAF. This will keep your body in a fat-as-fuel mode. As your slow twitch fibers develop, your body will get better at processing oxygen using fat, and you will eventually have to speed up in order to maintain the same heart rate. This phase is not about running slow, but running faster and faster at MAF--becoming a fat-fueled runner. The slowness is temporary. Remember, that temporary is sometimes a long time.

An aerobic phase of 12-16 weeks at the beginning of the year is suggested. If you are a beginner, or are trying to rebuild a shot aerobic system and body, then longer periods are recommended. In these cases, if you're committed, eliminate all speed work until you no longer see improvement in your MAF tests or training paces at the same HR.

As soon as Mark Allen started including this phase in his training, he began to win the Ironman. He would do it the first 12 weeks of every new year as a base-training phase, and did it each year of each Ironman win, taking one year off to rebuild again. he also followed this phase with an intense Anaerobic Phase.

Mark Allen On MAF[/URL" target="_blank">--includes the rules of MAF base-training

Fun things to do during the Patience phase:

--MAF AEROBIC INTERVALS: warm-up for 15-30 minutes, then run a pace that gets your HR to your MAF, go for a 1/4 mile or 2-3 minutes, then slow down to a pace that brings your HR down to MAF-10. Go this pace for a 1/4 mile of 2-3 minutes. Do 6-10 repeats.

--MAF UPHILL REPEATS: If done on a treadmill, do the same as aerobic intervals. Run a hill for a 1/4 mile or 2-3 minutes, bringing your HR to your MAF, then rest by running flat or 1% for the same distance or time. Start with 4 repeats and eventually build to 8. If done outside, you can do the same way as on the treadmill, or you can run the downhills at MAF as well, or run them at MAF-10.

--MAF DOWNHILL REPEATS: Choose a hill that isn't too steep, but long. Run the uphill slowly keeping your HR below MAF, then run down the hill getting your HR to MAF. This will help your turnover.

--MAF LOVEMAKING: Be creative, but stay under MAF, unless you're in the Anaerobic Phase.....

*********************Anaerobic Phase************

A reminder to the MAF masses, and especially with those wallowing in the frustrating funkhood of the beginnings of the aerobic phase and practicing some high level whining, that there is a whole chapter in Training For Endurance by Phil Maffetone about an Anaerobic phase. I never called the Maffetone training LOW-HEART RATE training--it's not. It's a form of training that has an aerobic phase and a phase that includes anaerobic work. Here are some quotes from Training For Endurance by Dr. Philip Maffetone Chapter 12 (2nd revised Edition, David Barmore Productions, ©2000):

"once you've built sufficient aerobic function, your body may be ready to add anaerobic work. I say 'may' because many endurance athletes can often bypass this part of training, and rely instead on racing to get all the anaerobic stimulation necessary...

....The main purpose of anaerobic training is to build the fast-twitch muscle fibers. For endurance athletes, maximum benefits can be achieved easily in as short a time as 3-4 weeks...

...anaerobic workouts can be treacherous domain. This risky training is frequently the cause of injuries, fatigue and poor performance.

..keep it simple...keep it short...if the duration of anaerobi workouts is excessive, it can contribute to overtraining and ill health...

..including races, do not exceed 2-3 anaerobic workouts per week. For many athletes, one is sufficient...

...the day before and after should be easy...never do two consecutive days...

...45 minutes maximum...

...do not exceed 90% MHR

...always warm-up and cool down sufficiently...

...Consider Mike Pigg's 1994 season--one of his best. He won most of his races and finished high up in the rest. He did not do any anaerobic work until September, when most of his races were completed."

Basically, he sees a need for it, after you've built your aerobic function for a good period of time. 4-10 weeks before the big race depending on your level and age. You can use MAF tests to monitor progress or overtraining during this phase.

****Rest, Recovery, Vacation*****

In the different phases of this training, remember to always follow the rules of recovery as close as possible. Suggestions:

--always follow a hard day (high mileage, speed, race) with an easy day (low miles, slow, total rest). After a hard race take it easy the following week. Depending on the distance, you might take anywhere from 1 day to 2 weeks total rest from running, or keeping whatever running you do very low mileage and under MAF. Some Maffers, like Jesse (Leitnerj) are still able to keep the volume high during a week after a race, but this usually means all runs are below MAF.

--increase volume of miles or time by no more than 5-10% per week. Cut back your miles or time on feet every 3rd or 4th week, resuming at a higher level after the recovery week.

--Maffetone recommends 1 rest day a week for age-group athletes.

--it doesn't hurt to take a few weeks off from running every year. Mark Allen would take many weeks off after the Ironman and not begin training until the aerobic base phase in January.

Whenever I've followed these rules, I've never been injured. I've never been injured in the aerobic phase of this training. My only injury came when I foolishly ran 80 miles the week after a hard-run, half-marathon PR. It happened during a 20-miler where I was running way too fast in the last 3rd of the run. Most likely if I would have kept below MAF during the run, I would have been fine. I would have definitely been fine if I just ran 40 miles that week below MAF with no long run! My body needed recovery, not a sledgehammer.


If you haven't read Training for Endurance, I highly recommend it. Most of Maffetone's books cover the same info in each. So, search Maffetone on Amazon and you'll see his other books. High Performance Heart is good.

MAF training sources:

Maffetone Method by Dr. Phillip Maffetone[/URL" target="_blank">

Training for Endurance by Dr. Phillip Maffetone[/URL" target="_blank">

High Performance Heart by Dr. Phillip Maffetone[/URL" target="_blank">

Mark Allen On MAF[/URL" target="_blank">

Mark Allen On MAF Base-training[/URL" target="_blank">


SLow Burn by Stu Mittleman[/URL" target="_blank">

On a personal note. I think my 3:22 BQ/PR marathon and 1:34 half marathon at age 46, 5'10", 172 pounds, running just 3.5 years after a 4:14 marathon and 1:51 half marathon just two years earlier, speaks volumes for MAF training.

Takes patience though. It can be a lonely pursuit. Even Mark Allen spoke about how tough it was to be left in the dust by his training partners day after day. Paid off in the end.

Good luck. Keep going!


--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
zzzzzzz[/URL" target="_blank">

http://This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Oct-22-2007).
<HR>



Jim I really like this contirbution to this thread. It gives a better view of the whole picture...something I think this thread lacked.

One question-

quote:<HR>do not exceed 90% MHR<HR>


Why would you not exceed 90% MHR? One thing to think about in an anaerobic phase is the distance in which you are training for. For a 5k or a mile racer it would make sense to do intervals at race pace and slightly faster don't you agree? That would yeild HR's of 98 or even 100% max.
Click to view runawayjesse's profile Legend 538 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
93. Oct 26, 2007 4:06 PM in response to: formationflier
quote:<HR>Originally posted by jjwaverly42:


There is no doubt in my mind that in order to be in racing shape, I have to either race or do some race-pace tempo runs, lactate threshold tempos, and Fartlekian stuff or a few intervals, BUT only after a decent base period. My experience with MAF is that at the end of the base period, I've made some progress at those HR's, but my legs don't feel very fast. I need a few LT runs to light the wick of the massive oil lamp that I've filled in the past 8-16 weeks.

It was important for me to figure out a system where I could approximate race pace before the race, so I can make a plan. I can't do that without race-pace tempos, LT runs, and my HRM. Once I got the pace plan, I try to achieve it without the HRM. I don't need the thing getting in my head during a race telling me to slow down. My heart rate will go high in the last 5 miles of a marathon, if I'm giving it everything--over LT. It gets as high as 5k HR and in the very end near the MHR. I wore the HRM once in a hard marathon to get training info. For one brief period, I let the number I saw contribute to a slowdown (Sugarloaf 2006), I picked it up and was later very surprised by how hard I could go pace-wise and HR-wise down the stretch.

Even though there are physical limitations, seems that the mind can sometimes bend them a little bit, if you stop thinking and let go (mental toughness is the ability to do that).

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
profile[/URL" target="_blank">

<HR>


Another good post. When you go into your tempo's, intervals, fartlek etc.. Do you base your workouts off a pace at that point or still use HR as a guidline? How do you come to dertermin race pace? That is the pace you plan to aim for?
Click to view slowgino's profile Pro 88 posts since
Jan 13, 2007
94. Oct 26, 2007 6:06 PM in response to: formationflier
quote:<HR>Originally posted by runawayjesse:
...
When you go into your tempo's, intervals, fartlek etc.. Do you base your workouts off a pace at that point or still use HR as a guidline? How do you come to dertermin race pace? That is the pace you plan to aim for?

<HR>


I know a number of folks who, after 6 months to a year or more of base building, did a program including all that kind of interval/pace/tempo/hills/etc running. They did it all based on HR. The "pace" runs were just done at a particular HR, determined by their VO2 tests... all the running was done based on their (reasonably current) VO2 tests.

That's how I train... just by HR. I use the VO2 test results to determine how to do each run. So e.g. I can choose to do a nice slow "recovery/build" run at an HR range where my RQ (RER) is about 0.74. That is where my energy burn is 87% fat and 13% carbs (glycogen.) Etc. If I want to go to 67% fat & 33% carbs, I just use the HR that gives me an RQ of about 0.8. For short intervals I don't pick the HR based on something like "AT-5" or "AT-10" etc, I just pick it based on e.g. RQ = 0.95 (i.e. 83% carbs, 17% fat burning.)

I know some of the people who did that 6 months of mixed training based on HR just ran a marathon based on HR (not pace) and had some significant PRs. This makes sense to me. If you run at a pace determined by your HR, you are running based on what your body is telling you, and that's a good thing. Of course, doing the training runs based on HR gives a foundation for this.

Anyway... just my $.02 ...

Gino
Click to view jjwaverly42's profile Legend 337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
95. Oct 26, 2007 8:47 PM in response to: formationflier
quote:<HR>Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Why would you not exceed 90% MHR? One thing to think about in an anaerobic phase is the distance in which you are training for. For a 5k or a mile racer it would make sense to do intervals at race pace and slightly faster don't you agree? That would yeild HR's of 98 or even 100% max.

<HR>


Remember that Maffetone's underlying theme is maintaining health and management of stress while getting the most out of your training. I got those anaerobic quotes for Training For Endurance, and is mainly geared towards endurance events. Here's a direct quote or two:

"After many years of assigning hundreds of styles of anaerobic intervals in many sports, I have concluded without a doubt that all of these different methods result in the same or every similar benefits when it comes to endurance athletes. Whether a runner does 400m rpeats or hill repeats, Fartlek....he or she will obtain the same or identical benefits for endurance races. The most significant concern with anaerobic workouts is that they don't overstress the athlete....the frst simple suggestion for anaerobic work is that your HR not exceed 90% MHR, regardless of the type of workout." ( page 96, 97 Training For Endurance 2nd Revised Edition by Dr. Phillip Maffetone, ©2000 David Barmore Productions)

It comes from his years of working with endurance athletes. He doesn't say you can't go over, but in his experience going to 95% gives the same results as going to 90%, so why put the extra stress?

As far as a running the mile and below, I'm not sure if this applies. I can't find his definition of an endurance athlete, but I imagine it's Tri's, Ultras, marathons, halfs, down to 5k.

That is my 95 IQ take.

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

profile[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view jjwaverly42's profile Legend 337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
96. Oct 26, 2007 9:21 PM in response to: formationflier
quote:<HR>Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Another good post. When you go into your tempo's, intervals, fartlek etc.. Do you base your workouts off a pace at that point or still use HR as a guidline? How do you come to dertermin race pace? That is the pace you plan to aim for?

<HR>


In the past I used the HR monitor for lactate threshold, MRP tempos, and I really haven't done many intervals, but when I did, I tried to maintain a 5k HR.

My training for Boston in the spring, for which I am now building up to, I am going to experiment with using the 90% MHR as a ceiling for anaerobicky stuff as Maffetone suggests, although I might do a few races on the way that will probably go over. The anaerobicky work will begin about 8 weeks out. Lactate threshold tempos (20-40 minutes) and MRP miles, and an occasional Fartlekian expression. My LT Runs go to about 90% at the end, so those are usually good enough for me. Intervals aren't really necessary.


How do I determine marathon pace?

I use a system that includes marathon PR, MRP tempo runs run in a certain zone, current LT pace, and the McMillan calculator. It ends up being pretty accurate within a few minutes.

I just don't pick a pace I'd like to achieve, but get it to it using current development and fitness.

I explained it once or twice in one of the many books of this thread. Since I haven't trained for a marathon in a year, I'll have to get the system together and lay it out for you.

Lastly, I truly feel the most important part of the training is the aerobic phase. Sometimes it seems mothing much is hapening, but something is.

I'll get back to you on the system.

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">
profile[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view jjwaverly42's profile Legend 337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
97. Oct 26, 2007 9:49 PM in response to: formationflier
I just did a quick Google using a few keywords and I found what I wrote first try!

Here's how I get to a marathon race pace:

5 months out from your marathon, run a race or two half-marathon or less. Run them the best you can.

--take your best race,, go to the McMillan Calculator and pop in the time for the distance. A page will pop up. (I popped in 1:12:00 for a 10-mile race PR in July 2006)

--the top two boxes will show all the possible race times you can achieve at different distances with total fitness, good weather, and a sane course.
For 1:12:00 it gave (I'm excluding all the sub 5k distances 100m-3mi and a few between half and full marathon):

5000m...4M...8000m..5M....10K......15K......13.1M....Marathon
20:41..27:03...34:06..34:17..42:58..1:06:35..1:35:37..3:21:40
6:40.....6:46....6:51...6:51....6:54....7:09........7:18.....7:42

--I keep the 3:21:40 in mind as I begin base training. After 8-16 weeks (depending on the time I have) of runs below MAF and building volume, about 8-10 weeks from the marathon, I'll go out and do a 3-4 mile lactate threshold run. Having the first mile average about 85% MHR, then maintaining pace to get to about 90% by the 3rd or 4th mile.

The goal is to have that LT run fall between the 15k and half marathon time listed above (7:09 and 7:18). If I am way over (i.e 7:25 plus), and the temperature is low enough, that indicates I am not yet fit enough to shoot for a 3:21:40. There is still time.

--Keeping 85-90% of miles below MAF. I then add LT runs, MRP tempo runs, or the last 3-4 miles of a long run at marathon heart rate. I might even do fartlek on week, or some intervals (rare). Just something at higher HR's once a week.

--During that final 8-10 weeks, I like to do at least two MRP pace tempo runs between 7-14 miles at marathon heart rate (averaging about 85% MHR). Whatever the pace is, it is. Don't force it to be dream marathon pace. If the temperature is good (55-60º) and the pace is on "dream pace" or a bit faster, then this indicates dream pace might be a real possibility.
If it is slower for each run, then adjustments to the dream pace might have to be made.

--I do more LT runs in that 85-90% zone. Keeping tabs on the pace and seeing if they fall between the 15k and HM time in the calculator..

--If the pace falls between the goal 15k--half marathon pace, AND the MRP paces become a bit faster than the dream pace, then I go for the dream pace. I am fit enough.

--I then make a pace plan and try to follow it.


The important part of this system is comparing the LT paces to the calculator, as well as the pace of the MRP runs. If I find I'm smoking the the dream pace and the McMillan 15k time, it's time to
get a faster dream pace. This can be done without having to run a race first. Though usually a race time is handy. This works pretty well for me.

--Jimmy

MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

profile[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view Dana Becker's profile Legend 392 posts since
Nov 20, 2007
98. Oct 26, 2007 10:25 PM in response to: formationflier
Gah. My 305's HRM battery died on me. I bought a new battery, but no go. I've tried replacing the battery about...oh...quite a few times now.

I hope the transmitter isn't toast. A few days before it died completely, I would make it about 4 miles into a run, and then my HR would slowly drop...down to like 32...about Fred's tempo HR ya know....

And then it would just go blank. It never did that once in 14 months, so naturally I figured it was the battery. Now I'm not so sure. Granted, with my pacing now, I have a good idea of my HR, but it's just not the same.

I guess I could wear my wife's Polar HRM and the garmin for pacing. LOL

Wow...desperate times call for desperate measures I tell ya.
Guest
99. Oct 27, 2007 1:07 AM in response to: formationflier
Hi all on week 3 now and still loving the maf approach. I have a couple of questions I am beginning to wonder about while progressing in maf.

First, how important are recovery weeks every 3-4 weeks since all my runs are at an easy and comfortable pace. I am increasing roughly 10%/week but feel great and haven't felt worn down yet. Should I schedule lighter weeks or just do as my body seems to tell me.

Second question involves weightlifting. I will eventually want to get back in lifting but have hopes to run a hm and a full one next year if the training keeps progressing, so was wondering when might be a good time to start incorperating lifting also. Getting mileage up is first priority if you think lifting would interfere with the maf training until some future point in my training.

Thanks tons,
Mark
Click to view seton077's profile Amateur 29 posts since
Jul 27, 2005
100. Oct 27, 2007 12:56 PM in response to: formationflier
True "basic training" question:

I have been running for 3 years, but without specific goals and consistency.

I have read the maffetone book on fitness and as much of this thread and previous as I can. I just bought a HRM.

My current goals are to build my base to a consistent 20 miles per week (I am 3 weeks into it....16, then 18 then 20). Running one long of 7 and 3 shorter varying from 3.5 to 5.5).

Today I used the HRM for the first time and basically just tried to keep it from beeping at me. (meaning under an 85%)
I slowed down my 6 mile run to an avg of 11 min pace (this is about 1 min slower that my usual pace).
Of my total 66 mins, 45 were in the zone , 1 under and the rest 20 min were over.

So do I just keep doing this until I see time improvements, say 3 months or so?

Am I right not to add intervals until I am happy with my base?

I know this is basic, but heck you guys are experts....and I know you can set me on the right path.
Click to view Bigdave10000's profile Pro 87 posts since
Oct 22, 2007
103. Oct 27, 2007 2:41 PM in response to: formationflier
quote:<HR>Originally posted by dfcameron:
BigDave,

Great progress! This is the kind of stuff that people need to see. My progress was somewhat similar - although I started around 9:40 at 100 mi/month - and peaked at 8:40 at 357 miles for the month. At that point, I started getting muscle issues, so backed down a bit. I just finished my "best" marathon in 3:28 - not my fastest time; but my best marathon (fastest time was 13 years ago).

Good luck in the continued progress. What have you done to minimize the chances the heart issues won't recur?

<HR>


Well I am on Plavix, a blood thinner to keep from getting blood clots on the stents. Take zocor for cholesteral.

There really isn't much I can do. I have bad genes. I wasn't over weight, didn't smoke, didn't have high cholesteral, ate good, had been running 20-70 miles per week for 4 + years. I am only 40.

My dad had a heart attack at 50 and my uncle had one at 45. You can't get past family history. I was younger, skinnier and in better shape then anyone I saw in the hospital the few days I was there.


------------------
My Profile[/URL" target="_blank">
Click to view jjwaverly42's profile Legend 337 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
104. Oct 27, 2007 3:16 PM in response to: formationflier
quote:<HR>Originally posted by marktman:
Hi all on week 3 now and still loving the maf approach. I have a couple of questions I am beginning to wonder about while progressing in maf.

First, how important are recovery weeks every 3-4 weeks since all my runs are at an easy and comfortable pace. I am increasing roughly 10%/week but feel great and haven't felt worn down yet. Should I schedule lighter weeks or just do as my body seems to tell me.


Thanks tons,
Mark
<HR>


Welcome to Slowtwitchia!

The idea of the cutback week is to allow for recovery and adaptation. It helps to stay healthy and to ward off potential overtraining and overuse injuries, which still can occur using MAF or HADD. Depends on the volume I would say. I take them religiously whether I'm feeling zippy or not. I find that when I first get up to 50-60 miles per week I really feel that I need them, and less as I go a little higher, but I still take them. You'll have to be the judge on when you need them. You might find, according to your volume, that you might need one every 5 weeks and that works.
I got the idea of the every 4th week from several different coaching sources, and seemed like a good idea.


I can't address the 2nd question as I lift nothing heavier than a large tablespoon full of potential spare tire.

--Jimmy

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